S1E10

Project&Finance of Utility Scale Renewables with Wien Energie's Herbert Brandner-TEB Podcast -S1E10

with Herbert Brandner· Wien Energie· 1m

TL;DR

Wien Energie targets 1, 000 MW of renewable electricity by 2030.

Synopsis

Herbert Brandner discusses Wien Energie's ambitious plan to reach 1, 000 MW of renewable electricity by 2030, with a focus on solar, wind, and hydropower projects. He emphasizes the importance of local expertise and community engagement in project development while addressing regulatory challenges and the need for grid capacity improvements.

Key metrics

by the numbers · 8

1,000 MW
Renewable electricity target
600 MW
Solar capacity by 2030
200 MW
Installed solar capacity
15 MW
Large solar project size
2 years
Ecological survey duration
13 years
Wind project approval time
70
Department staff size
5 MW
Battery capacity

Topics

5 tags

project developmentgrid capacitycommunity engagementrenewable targetsM&A strategy

Stats

Duration: 52m
Words: 8.4k
Questions: 24

Timeline

8 chapters

Renewable electricity target
Wien Energie aims for 1, 000 MW of renewable electricity by 2030.
Solar capacity goal
600 MW of solar capacity is planned within the total target.
Current solar capacity
200 MW of solar capacity has been installed to date.
Project size increase
Current projects exceed 15 MW, indicating growth in project scale.
Ecological survey duration
Ecological surveys for projects can take up to 2 years.
Wind project approval
A wind project took 13 years to receive approval.
Department growth
The renewable energy department has grown to 70 staff members.
Battery capacity
A 5 MW battery is planned to enhance grid stability.

Key insights

5 takeaways

01
Community engagement is crucial
Involving local communities can mitigate opposition and enhance project acceptance.
02
Regulatory hurdles slow progress
Long permitting processes and legal challenges can significantly delay project timelines.
03
Grid capacity limits growth
Insufficient grid infrastructure is a major barrier to expanding renewable energy projects.
04
M&A strategy enhances portfolio
Acquiring existing projects can accelerate growth and diversify energy portfolios.
05
Focus on local expertise
Utilizing local knowledge is essential for successful project development in new regions.

Pull quotes

4 quotes

The main main figure is have roughly about 1, 000 megawatt of renewable electricity by 2030
Herbert Brandner
It's going to be around 600 megawatt of portable dikes
Herbert Brandner
That took you 13 years
Interviewer
You need to do more than at least two years of ecological survey in that area
Herbert Brandner

Transcript1302 cuesClick a timestamp to jump

Vienna we have very good grit
connections that's that's a big
advantage
and basically coming back to the
figures the main main figure is have
roughly about 1, 000 megawatt of
renewable electricity by 2030
>> and out of that it's going to be around
600 megawatt of portable dikes
>> y
>> and until now like we started that
pathway in I think 2018
>> so far we have about 200 megawatt
of photoable Dex on the ground.
>> Yeah.
>> operating and running.
>>.
>> And you need to know that getting to
that figures in order to reach
that figures what we do is that
basically Vin Energy and me in my
department like not me my team in my
department
>> what we do is like every year we build a
hydropower plant. M every year we build
a wind farm. Every quarter we build a
large scale free fieldmounted solar
installation and every week we build one
or two rooftop solar installations.
>> Wow.
>> And that's constantly.
>> So welcome to the news a new episode of
the energy bridge. today we have the
pleasure to have Herbert Baratna.
>> Oh, thanks.
>> Head of renewable electricity
production in Austria for being bin
energy.
>> That's correct.
>> So it's amazing. We were waiting for
this interview. you had a lot of
experience like a bit of context
internationally to develop
developing projects renewable projects
and now in area which is one of the
biggest utility companies here in
Austria. So yeah really thank you for
being here.
>> Well thanks for hosting me. It's a
pleasure to be here and it's always
nice to talk to young people at
the beginning of the road and
see how you see how you see things
>> and how it matches with my
experiences and how to go forward
together.
>> Sure. Thank you about the
>> Hey, thank you very much Herbert
for giving the time as as Daniel said,
but please walk us through some of
your experiences. u you have a
distinct US career I think almost 30
years now.
>> Well it's a 20 years it's not that I'm
not that old but it's 20 years. That's
right. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Please tell us about some of
your experiences and also starting from
your studies. it's so interesting
what you have studied and how you ended
up in the energy field.
>> Well it's it's very interesting.
when I was young in the beginning I
did a technical forestry high school. So
I'm a professional forester
>> and after that I continued on and
studied at the Vienna University for
economics and I have a university degree
in international trade and therefore
after I finished university I had the
chance to start my my career in the
energy field working for energy supply
lower Austria EVN
>> because that time in the in the mid 2000
at the early 2000s wooden biomass was
a big issue a big topic and EVN is a
very big player in Austria for district
heating systems based on wooden biomass
>> and looking at my expertise coming
from forestry and also economy
>> I got the chance when I was young to
work there as a and start the
supply chain management to get all
the wood they needed for their
district heating systems.
>>.
>> And also did a project development
there for district heat systems and
that was very interesting. I did that
for several years and while I did that I
also came across that master program at
>> to
>> and did the renewable energy
master at
>> to which literally changed my career and
and there I got all the other
basics of wind power, solar, water,
geothermal and all that stuff that was
very interesting. I did that beside my
normal job which was quite demanding
but doable.
>>.
>> And therefore after finishing that
in my early 30s I changed to another
company.
>>.
>> I started to work for Vintagi
and this time they were looking
for a new person to start over their
project development department.
>> Yeah. And as I used to work as a
student, I already got some job
experience in holiday jobs at Canada and
I had very good connections to Canadian
embassy in Vienna. they also hired me
to start up their projects and their
ideas to go to Canada and that was
obviously a very good opportunity for
me to start a professional career
also with a link to Canada.
>>. And so for VAB that was a very
international phase in my career based
in Austria. We did very much very many
projects in Austria but also we had
projects that time in France Germany,
Czech Republic, Italy and I started that
company in Canada for them. So, and
that that was very very interesting
because from the first time thinking
of going to Canada and really forming a
joint venture, securing land, getting
the permits and have the first turbines
up and running, we needed only a little
bit more than 2 years, which is
extremely fast. So, I'm I'm proud of
that.
>> Especially compared to one of the
project in V in Austria that took you 13
years.
>> Yes. but anyway we were lucky and
it's always a team effort. It's never
never ever it's a single person. It's
always a team
>> and you can only do that if you have the
right people around you.
>> Everybody is eager to go and it's always
successful project development is always
>> right people meet the opportunity at the
right point in time. So that's that's
always the steps to be done.
And anyway after after that
interesting international phase at VIP
for some years
>> u my wife and me decided that we want
to start a family and therefore it's
nice to spend some more time together
because that time I was traveling a lot
and not home very much.
>>. So I came back to Vienna
and was lucky to get this job
opportunity working for Vini
>> which is the biggest energy utility in
Austria and worked for them in the
wind power department and in the
meantime I'm the head of all renewable
electricity production in Austria.
>> Yeah. in between I was also
responsible for the international
field but we were lucky that the
international emphasis of Vienna energy
were that successful and ambitious that
we decided to start a new department for
it
>> and so now we have a separate department
who's focusing on the international
business and let it grow again.
>> Amazing.
>> Wow. And so you started just to
>>. a bit a small parenthesis in
in Canada because Canada they have a lot
of resources in but fossil resources. So
how was back in the time to enter with
renewables in a known and old market
full of oil and gas and
>> it's very important to notice that
Canada is a very big country. So there
is not one fits all like Canada is
fossil or Canada is renewable. there's
different areas and already at my
time at EVN I got links to Canada with
a focus on biomass and therefore had
a better idea and you need to say
that there are kind provinces in
Canada which were that time very much
focused on oil and gas like Alberta.
>> Yeah. and they are still but there are
already then there were other countries
or or provinces in Canada which were
looking more at renewables like British
Columbia.
So and don't forget in Ontario one
of the oldest hydropower dams are the
Niagara Falls power plant in Ontario.
>> So Canada has very rich resources in
any kind.
>>. and when you want to do
business, you just need to focus where
you want to go. But the biggest new
thing for me was Canada is still a
fairly new country. And that was the
first time I got to witness how it is to
work in a growing economy.
>> Cuz when you work in Austria, everywhere
you go, there are already three other
people. And if you want to do a project,
you need to take it from somebody else.
>> Yeah. When you do a project in Canada,
other people congratulate you and say,
"Well, well done. It's your project. Go
for it." And there is enough space and
in a growing economy,
>> there is room for growth and for new
things without taking it from somebody
else. That was the biggest difference.
>>. Wow. But also your background I
mean is very interesting forestry
finance and then engineering like how do
you think it shaped your renewable
energy strategy like how because you
have a very unique and different
perspective for renewables. for me it
was very interesting in my high school
education in forestry and some people
don't know that anymore these days
sustainability the word word
sustainability was created in forestry.
So all my forestry and all the forest
education is about sustainable use of
natural resources.
>> And therefore it was very interesting
because already in high school we had a
very good and deep
learning how to do the ecological
sustainability.
it was lots about engineering that
time already. So, so it gave me a
very profound base of understanding and
and also thinking in circular solutions
on what you do.
>>.
>>. And yeah, you have worked in
different continents, right? So what
would you see that there are the
differences to develop project in
different regions or continents
countries?
>> I think the most important thing is
before you start doing things you
need to take your time to understand
how this country works and how people
are there like and in every wherever
you work it's all about the team effort.
So, so you need to have different
characters in your team to have a most
successful strengths in your team
because everybody is different and
and you need to put people where they're
good at.
>> Yeah.
>> And also when you come to a different
country,
>> there is a there is a different ways
people do things.
>>.
>> And it's it's of course it's it's
also about stereotypes.
So sometimes people would say like more
southern countries they are maybe more
creative or more more
not so much on the point or like that
there's the typical German engineer who
is taking the third digit behind the
commer still serious. So, so I'd say
in a good in a good project team, you
would like take the German engineer that
the stereotype of a German engineer to
have it super accurate. You take the
thousand people or Italian to have a
creative project solutions and
the people understanding and the how
to do the stakeholder management and in
the middle you put an Austrian to make
sure that these two get along together
well. So, so and that's when you come to
a new country you look how how is
the permitting process there what what
resources are available and resources is
the usually it's a land resource it's a
finance resource and it's a human
resource and the human resource you
always need to take first because first
you want to make sure how is the culture
in the country how how the culture works
together what people do you have
available to be successful ful and then
all the other things will come into
place
>> step by step
>> and these teams for example in
Canada maybe you had to build a team
did you choose local people like
>> yes
>> people who knows the local reality
>> you always need to have local people on
the ground like and even in Canada
like if you work in Ontario or if you
work in Nova Scotia it's a different
envir environment nova Scotia counts to
the merry times
>> and it's also So the maritimes in Canada
are also somehow closer to maritime
feelings in Europe. It's not like the
it's people there are different
>> and you always need to have local
people on the ground because at the end
of the day you need to have people who
speak to the land owners who speak to
the farmer who have it there who go to
the local authorities and that's always
easier and more efficient with local
people. So what we did is that VAB was
very experienced that I'm already in
wind power engineering and project
development. So we brought in the
expertise of VA for project development
and engineering and local people we
had a exchange with the local people and
they put it under the ground at the
place.
>> Interesting. Herbert you have been
developing really big projects and
Vin energy aims to have almost about 600
megawatt solar in Austria by 2030.
>>. how much of it has already
been installed and what are the main
constraints that you get for maybe for
land usage for grid connection hurdles
especially because it's Austria and
especially Vienna is also very urban so
getting a grid connection there many
challenges of that so
>> how's it going
>> well first of all I need to say that I'm
in a lucky position that that we are
doing projects all over Austria not only
in Vienna
>> so we do many projects in Vienna but
also at the rest of Austria and also
within Vienna. Vienna has a very good
and very strong electricity grid.
>>.
>> so within the city limits of
Vienna we have very good grit
connections. That's that's a big
advantage
and basically coming back to the
figures the main main figure is have
roughly about, 000 megawatt of renewable
electricity by 2030..
>> And out of that it's going to be around
600 megawatt affordable dikes.
>> And until now like we started that
pathway in I think 2018.
>> So far we have about 200 megawatt
of photoable dikes on the ground.
>> Yeah. operating and running and
you need to know that getting to that
figures in order to reach that
figures what we do is that basically
Vinagi and me in my department like not
me my team in my department
>> what we do is like every year we build a
hydropower plant
>> every year we build a wind farm every
quarter we build a large scale free
fieldmounted solar installation and
every week we built one or two rooftop
solar installations.
>> Wow.
>> And that's constantly.
>> So, so that's quite impressive figures
that you can only realize with a
great team and I have a amazing team.
I'm happy about that. I'm very proud
about that.
>> And what you need to do is to get
to that scaling figures also in BV is
you can only build a certain amount of
projects per year. But what it is the
projects get bigger. So some years ago
when we started a 1 megawatt solar power
plant was huge like the average size of
the plant some years ago was 100
kilowatt.
>> M
>> now we build already at this year we
have three projects with more than 15
megawatt per project. So what it is we
have large fieldmounted plants and they
become bigger. So, so within the next
years, there will be years where we
build up to 100 megawatt per year only
in PV,
which sounds amazing.
>> It's a lot,
>> but it's possible when you think of
having one field mounted plant with
20 megawatt. It's basically, let's say,
okay, there three or four projects, but
they're big.
>>.
>> But it's doable.
>> And how is it going? Is
>> it's going well. It's going well.
only at the moment I need to say that
within the rest of Austria
unfortunately the grid connection and
grid capacity is very limited already
because the renewable energy power
plants
u erection worked quite well over the
last years.
>>. But getting the electricity
lines in place is basically too slow
because the permitting process is
taking very very long and there's so
many people and oppositions working
against it. They don't everybody wants
to have electricity but nobody wants to
see electricity lines or wind farms. So
that's that's very hard to make people
understand. Anytime you use your
smartphone to have a search engine or
whatever or or or watching videos
creates lots of energy demand and we
all need that energy, but it needs to
come from somewhere.
>> Yeah.
>> that's why it's interesting to
get those policy makers with the
industries like yourself.
>> Yeah. And it's also that the switch
of our energy system. It's not only a
industry or or or financial or whatever.
It's it's a social it's a social thing.
It's a social movement.
>>.
>> And like in the 1980s we had a
issue in Europe or all over the world
was acid rain from coal fired power bio
plants and therefore they built
filters and so on but also like and also
the maybe you heard about it or you
remember there was this issue with the
ocean ozone layer and so on and the FCA
sprays
>> and so there was a whole society
movement in avoiding that things..
>> And it would be very nice to see
that also for renewable electricity and
renewable energy a social movement like
that come up and people get
active in changing the things and
shaping their future.
>> Yeah. Wow. Great statement
>> and Herbert you have led so many
M&A deals at well starting from 20
almost 50 plus. when it comes to
renewable assets, how do you value
renewable assets that how how how good
it is? like u especially because of
the volatile market that we are in.
so how do you value the renewable
assets? So that you can get into
acquiring or maybe merging with some.
>> First of all, I need to say that we have
a very a very important growth
strategy..
>> So it's always important that you work
on a portfolio and our the portfolio
that we work on is that the
biggest thing that we our solid base is
our own projects. We have our own
project development department. We have
our own construction people who make
sure that it's constructed.
>> But in also in order to create speed it
on the way to reaching your targets, you
develop your own projects. But also when
you get to a good opportunity, you buy
projects from the market.
>> So that's comes to the M&A deals. And
when it comes to the M&A deal, it's
always important to have a very good
look at it. What's what's on the table
right now?
>>.
>> Really understand what's on the table
because everybody everybody who sells
your project says it's ready to build,
it's up and running, and it's so
perfect, but it never is. M
>> so it's very important to find out
quickly what's the crucial issues what's
still open
>> and then what's the value about the
project when you buy it on amil is also
the future potential of it like it's not
only what's on the table it's also your
perfect your your personal creativity
what you see what you able how you
further develop it
>> so when you when you buy project of
course in Austria, it's always a very
competitive market.
>>.
>> And then you see whether you see
okay, there's something on the table and
then you see all the obstacles what
could happen to it and then you
you lower it down and make it not
look look so good. That's one way to
look at it. Or to always look at the
chances and the risks. So you have
to address the risks but you also have
to address the chances. So like when you
buy a wind farm or wind farm project
and you see it
and it's let's say okay it's a
certain generation of wind generators
and it's a certain amount of
turbines and I have very good
planning staff in my department that we
look at it and say okay well there is a
wind farm for sale for with maybe 10
wind turbines but we see opportunity
that you add another agree to the
project and make it bigger than it is at
the moment.
>>.
>> That creates a surplus and that's the
things you look at it.
>> Yeah. So you have been in both sides
like developing and acquiring to make
all the
>> due diligence let's say technically
and legal. Okay. That's interesting.
>> It projects in other countries are also
interesting for V energy going forward.
yes that's the international
department that I that I already talked
about.
>> So they are at the Balkan regions and
also some Eastern Europe countries
>> and they always look at their own
development and acquisitions. That's
that's what we do.
>> Okay. It will be interesting to
interview them also because it grew
so fast that you had to create a new
department. So for sure there are things
>> that's that's very important when you
business development or corporate
development in your company always make
sure that first you see the opportunity
then you create the environment to
facilitate the opportunity and then you
try to get it with the staff that you
already have to a point where it's
mature enough that you're certain that
it's that you will be able to do the
next step and then you let it grow put
it to a certain
department. Make people responsible and
and doable for it and accountable for it
and let them go
>> and don't don't hinder yourself by
staying too small, but you want to be
sure that it's mature enough for the
next step before you let it go.
>> Just one question on that note. When
you started at Vin Energy about 10 years
ago, how how big was the theme and now
how much has it expanded? Well, it's
my department when I like when I about
10 years ago, I worked as a project I
started again. I did a step back like I
already was CFO for VIP at North
America. Yeah.
>> But then I did a step back and said no,
I want to be a project developer again.
>>.
>> But anyways, that time the whole
department was like 20 or 25 people or
something. And now we are only in my
department it's about 70 and altogether
it's it's more than 100 now.
>> Wow.
>> Wow. And just in that again because we
have heard that there is a lack of
professionals in every field to
address any transition. Have you
experienced that that
>> Yes. Yes. there is a lack of stuff
but it's that's everywhere. That's
everywhere. But what you want to do
is when you have that you look at what
skills what skill level people have or
what's what's similar things where you
need that skills and then get people
who would fit to the team and for
the rest train them yourself.
>> For me the most important thing is that
people fit to the team like personality
of people and if they are willing to
work and if they're smart or not. the
the rest professional education of
course you would have a certain
education from university or school or
whatever and the rest you can train them
on the job.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. just moving about
decarbonization
part for
>> how do you think the utilities can
balance electrification of heating and
transport with grid stability?
>>. Especially because of the inter
intermittency of
>> renewables. You see Vinagi especially
is in a very good position for that for
a sector coupling
>> because Vinagi is we have
electricity production.
>> We also have heat production. We support
we provide the city of Vienna with
electricity. We provide the city of
Vienna with heat and we provide the city
of Vienna with electricity for mobility
and also within the bigger framework of
the vinata.
>> there is also the vinolin and with
underground system and everything.
>> So we are happy that to be able to
play on the whole portfolio.
>> So that's a big advantage for us.
>>. And therefore there is a large
program going on now that Vinagi also is
drilling for geothermal heat sources to
get hot water out of the ground to feed.
>> That's new, right?
>> Yeah. Yeah. That that's Yeah, that's
that that's that will be very a very
important pillar for the future energy
supply
>> to have have the hot water source from
geothermal get into the into the
district heat system.
>>. And then we also have heat pumps
that provide the use the energy out of
like water from the danube or ground
source water to produce heat. And then
we also have it's basically like a hot
water boiler that in times where
there is too much electricity in the
grid or too much electricity produced
like solar energy at noon or
whatever,
>> we run that hot water boiler that boils
hot water out of the electricity surplus
is used to boil hot water. the hot the
hot water is stored in a in a large huge
storage
>> and then it's feeded into the district
heat system for district heat. So that's
that's one way you can do the sector
coupling
>> to balance out that system. So yeah
in this intermittency of renewable
you are addressing this over offered
of energy transforming it into hot
water in this case and how do you see
the role of storage to
>> storage is very important and there's
like at the moment we store the
energy also putting in different
systems like electricity to heat or
whatever,
>> but it's also going to be very like and
then also in the Austrian system, we
have the pump storage hydropower dams in
the west of Austria.
>> So the grit is balancing out within
Austria with the storage power
plants, but also very important is going
to be the battery storage systems. So
that that's another thing we're looking
at. And very important what we also
do is that that we have like for one
grid connections for a wind farm
>> we also blend it together with a PB
field. So we have a hybrid hybrid power
blend out of wind and photoable dikes
>> and then then we also put a
battery to it. So therefore we can
balance it balance it out perfectly
>> well with the same connection point
>> because what we what we found out is
that wind power production and solar is
not at the same time usually because
because usually there is more wind in
winter and there is less solar in winter
obviously and interesting enough if you
try to look yourself usually in the
mornings and in the evenings there is
usually it's more likely to be windy.
>> Yeah. But at noon at midday usually
when it's very hot it's not very windy.
So therefore the solar production
during the day but also over the year
>> is compliment complimentary the
wind.
>> So that's the first thing how you can
level it out and the second thing is
then with the battery and it's all
feeded in the same cable
>> and that's interesting. It is that a
kind of a pilot that you are planning to
do? We were No, no, we were one of the
first who did it. So, it's already up
and running like we built already
here at the 32nd district in V at
the at one of our biggest PV plants at
the Shaflasa.
>>.
>> that feeds into a grid connection
from a wind farm that we have out there
in Andlastov.
>> There is a there is a wind farm with 9
megawatts of wind power that we have.
>>. The grid connection capacity for it
is 12 megawatts. So there is the 12
megawatt cable and within that 12
megawatt cable we have the 9 megawatt
from the BV plant for from the wind
power in Andler turf but also 17
megawatt of photovolta dikes from the
shuffle host class. It all feeds into
the same grid
>> into the same grid and now we add a 5
megawatt battery to it.
>> Okay. to have a better leveling out of
the system, balancing of the system and
that will be the battery will be up and
running at the end of the year.
>> And then we have a perfect match of that
system here..
>> And another interesting installation
we have is out at Trumau at the south of
Vienna where we have a 10 megawatt BB
plant and a 27 megawatt wind power plant
also feeding into the same grid and
there will be more BV and also a battery
coming to that system.
>>. sorry just to know the
technical details but for how many
hours are the battery storage system
designed? it depends. the first
batteries that we do now are designed
for 2 hours.
>>.
>> but I guess more likely it will go
to 4 hours
>> for some specific reason. Legal
framework.
>> No, it's just that the midday
peak tends to be longer.
>> Okay. To optimize.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a technical
optimization.
>> Okay. and just the last one but
regarding the permits especially for
the grid connection because you have to
talk with APG in this case. So how is
the permit process to get
this new projects like hybrid projects
>> in the same connection point
>> that's at this level it's not the RPG
it's still a 100 110 KV so that's the
local local grid providers so that would
be Vina or or Nets whatever
>> and that the it's basically it's just
the application process and as long
as they have capac capacity in the grid,
they're obliged to let you in.
>> So, so that's that's not the big deal.
At the moment, what we face is much more
serious issue that new legislations are
coming up. It's the new it's the alv
the electricity law in Austria and
and therefore it's very important at the
moment they have planned that PV power
plants also when they feed electricity
into the grid would need to pay kind of
taxes. No way. That's
>> and also u when you have a
battery storage system, it's very
important. The best case is like it's a
expensive infrastructure that you
build. So you don't want to use it only
once a day at the midday peak for the
photoable dikes to load it.
>> It's also like that that battery could
be loaded like 24/7 load or unloaded
also to balance the grid. And at the
moment legislation is not fully in place
to make that economical feasible
possible because at the moment
unfortunately government is looking
for every kind possible where they can
get money from to solve the budget and
at the moment they big time are reaching
into renewable energies with the
electricity prices and all different
kind of new taxes to hinder that. So
it's it's legislation which is very
complicated to get permits
>> and at the moment it's also getting very
complicated to earn money with it.
>> Wow. This is a like a dejà vu with what
happened in Spain with the
>> the tax to the sun that they call it. So
wow we're going to go deeper into that
but that's for another interview but
it's
>> just going one step back about
what we were talking about the heating
pot. So biomass had played a key role at
EPN and also do you think that the
other countries like let's say in the
more central and eastern Europe they
should prioritize biomass over solar and
wind?
>> It's different things we're talking
about like I say for electricity
production solar wind and hydro or like
hydro wind and solar in that in that
order
>> makes much sense.
>> Yeah. For heat production, I'd say
biomass, wooden biomass and also bio gas
makes sense for heat production.
>> Yeah.
>> For but it's just for large scale or
bigger scale electricity production.
It's a tremendous amount of resource
that you need and it's a amazing effort
in the logistics that you need. So
therefore I would recommend the biomass
for heating and the other sources for
electricity. I would I would keep it
divided.
>> Yeah.
>> Amazing. just some more challenges
about project development. like
the project development never goes
without the transparency and there's a
lot of corrupt corruption risk and
transparency issues that project
developers have to go through. Would you
think that how can people safeguard
their financing especially in
renewable projects and I know in Austria
the system is robust but also like
clean energy is also going into
different markets.
>> How do you face that? Well, it's first
of all, I think it's it's good to stick
with
bigger known energy utilities
>> because like we have our compliance
officers and our own obligations and
it's bigger companies tend to stay on
the legal side because it just doesn't
make sense to go the wrong way
>> because sooner or later the things fall
back on someone. So, so it's always the
it's maybe at the first step it looks
like it's the harder way.
>> Yeah.
>> But it's the longerlasting way to stay
on a legal side and like I would
never do anything illegal or like
corruption wise things because it's it
just makes no sense.
>>. What you rather need to do is that
very often not not by purpose but
sometimes the people you have to do with
do with like mayoras of other cities who
give you the land rights or or or land
owners they basically they don't know
better and then it's in the obligation
of the project developer to tell them
well hey sorry guy maybe you're asking
me for something to do for you in order
to get your land but I need to tell you
what you're asking me for is not legal.
we cannot do that and we are not willing
to do that. So like it's always in the
in the responsibility of the
professional to make the nonprofessional
person aware of the framework we work
in and to stick on the legal side
and I say I see like
it would be too easy in my way to say
well Austria is so good and then there
are all the other countries which are so
corrupt. the world is a little bit more
complicated.
So there are people everywhere
who want to try to optimize their own
system. Let's say it like this and
it's up to you and the project
developer and stay professional and just
do a professional job because that's the
longerlasting.
>> So it's a matter of risk too, right?
>> Yes. It's it's it's a to stay on the
legal side is a is basically a kind of
risk mitigation because
you want to make sure that you have no
not in any case any any illegal or
corruptive things in your environment
because this will this will put your
project into danger.
>> Yeah. Is it different? just one
question on that note especially for
non-EU countries because V energy do
want to get into Balkans so
because they have a different legal
framework and energy communities make
sure that they come on the same level as
EU so there's some regulation changes
that you think that they should do
>> and so that there could be more
transparency
>> basically basically all the EU countries
at the main the main frame framework
nowadays is already done by the EU
anyway.
>>.
>> So the framework is done by the EU
and from the EU it comes down and
like at the end of the day the EU is
doing the framework and the separate
countries need to put it into force. So
so there is basically no way around it.
>> Okay. But and also one more thing about
that thing with corruption and stuff or
maybe like going looking at other
countries also think about this way
like
things are changing very quickly.
>> So if you would would do some things
with one person in politics which are
not 100% correct. probably these persons
these people maybe are not there anymore
next year or the year after and then
then you lost time and money and
resources so it's better to stick to the
official way and walk it through
and have a more sustainable result.
>>. and regarding the challenges to
in the development side
>> just to come back with the case that Ro
mentioned of this wind power plant who
took 13 years to get approval and it
was approved this year.
>> how was that process for bean energy?
What happened? What were the learnings?
It's it's basically it's a it's a long
column of legal issues that we
have that basically first of all like
when you have starting with the idea of
a project okay you have the idea you
want to do a wind farm perfect nice then
you go to a certain area and say well I
want to do it here because it looks good
there's and then you want to make sure
that there's enough distance to house
things of other people that you don't
have any issues with noise emissions or
whatever and then You start like be
before you even hand in for the
permitting
>> you need to do more than at least two
years of ecological survey in that area
to make sure that that there is no e or
that you have the
>> that and they have a sound database
of all the ecological issues and
all the things. So you need to have two
or three years only to provide all the
the necessary material to hand in for
the approval process.
>> Two three years.
>> Yes.
>> Okay.
>> That's that's two to three years that
you need to do a survey of counting all
the birds, counting all the bats,
looking at all the plants and all that
stuff. So that's already the first
thing. Then you hand in for the
permitting process and then authorities
again usually take about one year to
look at the papers because it's a lot of
paper. It's like it's it's the when
you print out all the papers you need
for environmental assessment in Austria.
It's it's a whole van. It's not the
minivan. It's a van. It's a van full of
paper.
>> So that's people need to go through
that.
>> Okay. and then you have all that
permitting and then at that stage
in lower Austria they came in a zoning
process where where the authorities of
lower Austria said well we don't want
wind farms anywhere anymore we do a
zoning where you want to have it
>> and that zoning process took another 3
years so that's the first six
years already gone
>> okay
>> so then you end up you have your
project in that zone with the zoning
process. You do the environmental
assessment and after six, seven years or
something, you get your your
approval. Hooray.
>> Agreed.
>> Perfect. And then comes a project
opponent and says, "Well, but I think
there's something not done correctly and
I put you to court because I don't
believe that your ecological survey is
correct." And there's got to be I
think there is that bird or or maybe
it's not there but it could be there
potentially.
>> So another two years at court at court
to prove that the bird is not there and
it also will not come.
>> Okay,
>> that's another two years gone. So then
okay we are about 8 years in the field
and then the windmill the wind the
product to produce the electric the
electricity the windmill is not
available on the market anymore.
because market development is very
quick. So every 5 year years usually a
new types of wind farms wind power
plants come out and the old ones are
gone.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. So then you have a permit but
no no power plant anymore to build
there. So you start again to change the
permits to all the things that are
available in the market. Now, same thing
again. Go to the authorities
>> again to
>> count the birds, count update the birds
>> and all of a sudden 13 years are
gone.
>> Oh wow. Well, this year finally
>> well now we build it.
>> Okay. But there must have been
also as you said in between there was a
case about if the ecological survey has
not been done thoroughly and so the
role of community but how can
utilities can design some projects where
taking consideration of communities and
taking more environmental people in
consideration and
>> to be honest I need to say I think
it's very important that that you do the
ecological study and all that
professional and that no nobody of us
wants to harm any any birds or whatever.
Yeah. But at the moment the legal
situation in Austria is that anybody who
claims to be an NGO can can step can put
you to court and I think this is going
too far. like I think the rights of
of different parties to interfere your
project is going ways too far because
>> in Europe obviously we have a we
have an energy issue, we have a climate
issue and all that stuff and still still
people can block you at court for years
just saying we think you didn't do it
right. So I think that that also the
the
possibilities for third parties to
interfere with your project should be
limited at some step because after
several years of environmental
studies and several years of official
governmental approal approval process at
our situation in Europe and in Austria
now with the electricity demand and the
climate change. we should say after a
few years, okay, this is approved now.
Let's keep it like this and do it and
step forward.
>> I wanted to ask you something
>> that I'm personally curious about, which
is the retrofit of coal power
plants especially in this region.
>> So, what is your vision about it? What
would be the best practices to
do it? And yeah.
>>.
>> The best practice for a cold fired ball
plant is to take it down with a
caterpillar.
>> But can we reuse like to make a retrophe
to
>> No, I don't think so. No, because it's
I know that this has been done with
I think it at some power plants it
has been done with to use it for
pellets
>> but that used to be coal fired power
plants for brown coal which is the
dirtiest coal
>> and to change one like it's still
you would need to put so much investment
into it to have the correct filters and
everything in place and still it's a
very inefficient power plant. This is a
technology with like 20% efficiency like
in the year 2025.
>> It's a it's a it's a waste of resource
to run a power plant on 20% of
efficiency just because it's there and
old. So I think old power plant should
be put down old and have a new one
like if you want to use biomass build a
new power plant using biomass but build
an efficient new one. So that that's the
one of the biggest impacts and always
make sure that you use electricity and
heat because all that old coal power
plants they don't use the heat as well.
So, so you would have an old unefficient
power plant using valuable resource of
wood just for electricity production.
So, that's that's not state-of-the-art
energy consumption. So, build a new one
that uses electricity and heat and make
it efficient.
>> Okay. So, this 20% of efficiency to
generate electricity, the rest 80% is
almost heat.
>> Yeah. It's it's it's lost. It's gone.
It's it's blown in the air
>> and it could be used. Well, well, you
could you could have a usually with a
more efficient engine, you can dimension
it way smaller. You have it smaller, you
need less resource, you use electricity
and heat, and you end up at the end of
the day like with 85 or 90% efficiency
efficiency and that's what we need to
aim for.
>> Okay. So, no retrofit for coal, just
two.
>> No.
>> Okay. I like it.
>> Coal is gone.
>> Cool. So Herbert going from the old
outlook to the future outlook
>> what emerging tech that you think
because energy transition is a is a long
goal it will go on for next two
decades what emerging tech that you see
coming up in the next years
>> I'm not sure like I think we
will we will need maybe not emerging new
technologies but I think it's optim
optimization and a new
steering of and balancing out of the
whole system. That's like that's what
will make our system more efficient and
better for the next years. So because
the technologies basically the
technologies are in place already like
like we have we have wind water, hydro,
we have geothermal, we have hydrogen
that that's all already there. There's
nothing new anymore.
>> Yeah.
>> But now we need to facilitate it. We
need to scale it in bigger scale and we
need to level it out so that it's most
efficient use.
>> Yeah, actually we didn't we haven't
asked for hydrogen. What is the bean
energy vision with hydrogen?
>> Well, I'm I'm not an expert on hydrogen.
So, so it's better to talk to the
hydrogen experts.
>> Okay.
>> I think there will be use for
hydrogen. The hydrogen will come. The
challenge will be to get enough hydrogen
and get it out of renewable sources.
>> Yeah. like green hydrogen with all the
rainbow
>> but the green is the
>> the good one. Okay.
>> Interesting.
>> And yeah and we are in a big challenge.
Energy transition is set to 2050, right?
>> So would you have some advice for new
professionals who it's who are
getting into this this field?
>> Yes.
>> They may be stick to your dream. Do it.
It's very interesting. It is challenging
but go for it and do it and don't let
other people tell you like there is
every day you need you meet 10 people
who tell you what's not possible stick
to the one who says I believe in you
>> wow
>> go for it
>> amazing
>> and just on that note you change you
were telling about that you started MS
renewable energy system way later
after having so much experience so like
that people can the barriers to come
into renewable energy sector is not that
high. People thinks it's too high and a
lot of people young professionals
they don't want to come into it. So do
you have some also advice for them that
the barrier is not that high? They just
need to put
>> Yeah, it's it's not that high and don't
make it too complicated. Just go on the
website of one of the wind turbine
manufacturers. They have all videos
about tech their technology. look at one
of these videos and after 10 minutes you
will realize okay I can do that this is
understandable for me.
>> Yeah.
>> Amazing. Thank you very much for
being here.
>> I learned a lot in interview. So
>> thank you for inviting me.
>> Yeah.
>> Thank you. It's been a pleasure and hope
we get to hear about more project
that you do and keep the learning going.
Thank you very much.
>> Okay. Thank you.
>> Thank you.
>> Thank you. And thank you for the
community to for watching this video
until the end. And see you in the next
episode. See you.
Cool.

Project&Finance of Utility Scale Renewables with Wien Energie's Herbert Brandner-TEB Podcast -S1E10

Community engagement is crucial

Regulatory hurdles slow progress

Grid capacity limits growth

M&A strategy enhances portfolio

Focus on local expertise