S1E05

Bridging Research & Industry: Smart Grids, ML,&P2P Markets with Bharath Varsh Rao - TEB Podcast S1E5

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From
purely power system perspective, they
stabilize the grid way more than
renewable energy because renewable
energy is more independent in nature
>> and it's not it's not easily
controllable.
>>.
>> So if you have a lot of fossil based
generation,
>> you don't need a lot of flexibility.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. You have it.
>> That's the reality. Yeah. I'm giving I'm
giving you guys straight. Yeah. That's
that's how it is.
Okay. Yeah, there we are.
Wow, perfect.
So,
welcome to a new episode of Energy
Bridge. We are here with Vat inside the
AIT Austrian Institution of Technology.
Yeah.
>>
>> in the smartest lab.
>> In the smartest lab. So, I don't know
you, but I feel like a kid in a I don't
know in a playroom like making so much
test. We are going to try to shoot
something here and there., so yeah,
welcome Barat. Thank you for
>> giving us this time and we're very
excited to know about your work.
>> Yeah, thanks for having me guys. Yeah,
you're welcome to AIT.
>> Amazing.
>> And the smartest lab. Hey but before
we get into your career career journey,
could you explain this place a bit?
>> Sure. Yeah. So AIT has quite a lot of
laboratories. and this is one of the
the biggest ones. So this is called
the smartest lab. so smartest lab
was mainly designed as an
accreditation laboratory for providing
test reports for at the beginning for
inverters but now we've branched out to
not only inverters but electric
storage systems for electric vehicle
charging stations and so on and so
forth. We also had a micro grid set up
here a few months ago to test the
the viability of a micro grid. So this
is a commercial laboratory which means
that our clients come to this lab
>>. and then they bring their devices
and this is an entry point for them
to sell their products in Austria. So
they need to get certified
>> and AIT is one of the very few
certifying or AIT provides test
reports and then they can later go and
get it certified to be able to sell
their products in Austria.
>> And you told us about that place that
this is the clim
>> the KMA chamber. Yeah,
>> KMA chamber. Yeah. So the test
specifications requires the device to
operate in certain environmental
conditions and then we can test that in
the in the clean chamber. So we can have
a varying degrees of temperature,
humidity, so on so for other tests
other parameters and we can connect the
the device on load. So that's important.
So the device are actually functioning.
So it's on load and we can vary this
temperature profiles to get
different parameter characteristics and
we can see that and make sure that the
the devices adhere to the to the
standard.
>> Amazing.
>> Amazing.
>> So that's the main focus.
>> Get into your journey. So tell
us about yourself a bit where you from
what did you study and how did you
end up in a in a KMA chamber?
Yeah. I am u a researcher right now.
So I'm a scientist as well as business
developer at a department or group
or we call a competence unit. it's
called power and renewable gas systems.
And I moved to IIT approximately 10
years ago. I came here to do my master
thesis.
>> Yeah.
>> And before that I was doing my I was
studying my masters at Goblin in
France in Grenobyl in the middle of
Alps. And before that I'm come from
India from from Bangalore. So I studied
my bachelor's in electrical engineering
from Vua Technological University in
Bangalore and yeah it's been a hell
of a journey. Yeah. And right now 10
years in Austria before that in
France and then I'm originally from from
India.
>> Okay. And how old are you?
>> Yeah I'm 33 years old.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. And I got my PhD four years
ago.
>>. And yeah, it's it's it's very
interesting to work at AIT and
looking at all this amazing
infrastructure.
>> and yeah, meeting a lot of
interesting researchers across Europe
and yeah, I coordinate European level
projects. I get to travel a lot, meet
incredible researchers across the
European continent.
>>. and a bit more about your subject
of study at the PhD and so you
started at a doing your PhD you did
your master thesis in at AI then you
continued doing your PhD
>> absolutely yeah so my master thesis was
on datadriven methods for customer
profiling basically
>> so we have quite a lot of data
this is 10 years ago approximately so
we had a large scale installation of
smart meters back then in France There
was a very big push for linky smart
meters as you may you may know and in
Austria as well the smart meters were
coming up that were being installed
in Austria and the regulator EC
control of Austria wanted to know if
it's possible to get the
forecasting accuracy lower for
for mainly retailers
>> to better manage their portfolio
>> and then they can go to the market with
a better forecast and better portfolio
and that's the reason I was
aggregating creating different profiles
of different types to help retailers
do better load forecasting. So that was
the focus of my of my master thesis and
then for my PhD I moved into move
back to my roots which is power system
>> to do very detailed power system
control implementation. So mainly
control for low water distribution
grids. So doing a lot of lowflow
simulations, optimal power flow, I
I developed a method to manage
flexibilities in distribution grids and
then this evolved into local energy
community control because as you may
know in 2018 or was it 2019 European
Commission adopted the clean energy
transition as a clean energy partnership
and the clean energy package of
the European Commission first created
local energy communities. the concept of
local energy community and that really
blew up in Austria and Austria was one
of the very first countries to adopt
this transformation.
>> We have seen a lot of developing in this
area. So you have been here 10 years
so far and we are in a very exciting and
fast growing industry.
What what changes have you seen in this
10 years researching?
>> Right.
>> Yeah. the biggest change
would be digitalization.
>> Okay. So in the last 10 years
digitalization has gone into every
single domain because traditionally
power system is a very conservative
domain
>> and there's nothing really happened
for the last I don't know 100 years and
then in the last 10 20 years everything
changed
>> because you have the invention of the
smart grids.
>>. So smart grids started
coming into forefront because we are
installing or we have a desire to
install a lot of renewable energy in
in the solution grids again because of
the climate goals that we have and
this poses a lot of challenges.
>> Could you tell a bit more about what
exactly we mean by smart grid?
>> Absolutely. Yeah. So the desire for us
yeah for Europeans as well as across
the world is to minimize our carbon
footprint.
>>. So we want to electrify most of
the traditionally carbon based
loads for example you don't want to
transition from heating
>> using renewable
using gas for example or or wood or coal
you want to transition to electricity
because electricity we can make it more
green
>> and we can make electricity move also
move away from carbon based generation
like coal power plants
diesel power plants for example. So our
goal is to make it more green. So we
have more renewable energy that is
solar. We want to have more wind for
example. And this poses a lot of
challenges
>> and that's the reason we want some
intelligent way to manage these these
challenges that that comes up with this
renewable energy because you can't
predict solar accurately. You can't
predict wind very accurately because
wind is blowing whenever the wind wants
to blow and that's the reason there
is smart grid. So it's a intelligent way
of controlling different assets within
the grid. So that there are concepts
like self-healing for example if
there's a fault then there are
algorithms which automatically heal the
grid to restore the
electricity to the customers and
minimize the blackout time for
example. All of these things are
smart grids.
>> Amazing. So it's a smart grid is a
concept of coordination between
assets in a sector load generation and
how to manage the balance. How
important is the storage in this
concept?
>> Absolutely. so we're producing a
lot of energy and this is
renewable energy that we're talking
about. so it's important that we
utilize it as much as possible
>> because if we have too much renewable
energy so we saw this a few weeks ago
or was it last week in Spain and in
the Iberian Peninsula. So we have a lot
of renewable energy that's being
produced. So we want to efficiently
utilize it because it's a shame to
curtail it.
>> Exactly.
>> So we don't want to curtail solar power
because there is quite a lot of solar in
Europe right now. So during midday when
the sun is at the highest in summer
there's so much solar production that we
won't be able to consume it. Yeah.
>> And then right now we're curtailing it
and that's a shame. Yeah. Because
you have such a large infrastructure of
solar energy and we don't want to
waste it. And that's the reason
batteries are important but batteries
are beyond that. So it's not just
storage. Batteries can also support the
the grid. Batteries can help customers
manage their renewable energy
production, their load, the loads and
their consumption in general. And it can
also support the distribution grid or
transmission grid to provide some
kind of services to the grid. So
there are more than that. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Just one more thing it's let us
know if it's related or not because
we saw last days we are 13 of May
reporting this and the day ahead market
>> showed prices near to minus500
per megawatt hour. Is it related with
the production of renewables?
>> 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Because the
there's a concept called merit order
at the at the any any market that
you're looking at. So any for example
Apex the head market. So the
the concept of merit order is
persistent in all the markets. Of course
there's a lot of discussion about this
needs to be changed and so on and so
forth.
>> We're going to make an episode just
exactly. Sure.
>> Yeah. So the concept is very simple. You
want to give priority to the generators
which is the cheapest
>> because you want to keep the generators
that are cheapest to be able to
produce more electricity so that it's
cheaper for everybody. So which is the
cheapest energy in Europe right now?
>> Solar.
>> It's solar. Yeah. Solar and wind.
>> That's the cheapest
>> and the concept of
load and generation. So there's an
intersection at a point. So it's
there's also this this concept in
merit order where there's an
intersection everything beyond that
point so it's called the market clearing
point everything beyond that point is
not considered in the in the market
action
>> everything below it is considered so if
you have a lot of solar production
and wind production across Europe so
all of these are very cheap and then
that's the reason for example the
thermal power plant which is very
expensive to run and which cannot be
turned off very easily It's at the end
of the
>> it's at the end of the merit order and
they need to make it cheaper
>> to be able to participate in
the market. So if they go beyond the
market clearing price, they're out of
the market and they will they'll have to
shut down.
>> So for them it's
>> more expensive to shut down and come
back again next week or next day
>> than the heating system.
>> Exactly. Yeah. It's more expensive and
that's the reason they offer a ne
negative price. So they're willing to
pay you to be connected. Okay. So this
is a parenthesis because we want to go
into your research but thank you for
that
>> also about just adding to that and it
it addresses grid and the stability of
the grid how more and more renewable
has to be integrated within the grid and
you're working with digitalization with
the ML model for the grid and with the
smart grid how important it gets more
and more because we are in Vienna
the grids are slightly modernized
compared to Eastern Europe and they have
very
>> let's say quote unquote somebody said
shitty grid
>> why it's it's so important for them to
to integrate smart grids then
>> right absolutely now the
the because there's so much diverse
set of loads and generations that are
connected to the distribution grid
>> it is impossible for DSOs to
manage this because there there's the
one main issue is observability. So
distribution grids are not observed. So
the smart meters that are connected
>> especially in Austria due to GDPR
laws and data protection laws, it cannot
be used by a DSO to do some kind of
real-time control. It's not allowed. So
the distribution system operators are
not allowed to use this data for
network planning as well as real-time
operation.
>>.
>> Yeah. What what are the hurdles for
them?
>> Like why? It's data protection because
you can know quite a lot about
your personal behavior like for example
if I have your profile your your you
know apartment for example your
consumption profile I can I can say a
lot about what you do in the in the
house I can I can say when you watch a
TV I can say when you're taking a
shower all of this is possible yeah
>> is it like considered a personal data
>> it's personal data yeah so your
consumption data is personal data
>> because it gives a lot of information
about your behavior and it's
rightfully protected It needs to be
protected. It's rightfully protected.
Yeah. And that's the reason DS at
least in the current regulation envir
regulatory environment, they're not
allowed to use this data in real time.
And that's the reason we have
developed some AI methodologies to be
able to predict at a rather high
accuracy
>> with a subset of these measurement
devices. So we don't have full
observability. We can have few
measurement devices strategically placed
in a in a distribution grid to be
able to predict everything else like the
distribution grid.
>> Aggregated data with many consumers.
>> Exactly.
>> Not one one by one.
>> No, but we can we can also do one by
one. So we just need to have a certain
number of smart meters connected
from from the DSO or from the
customers who are willing to provide
this data to the DSO. so with the
help of this we can predict everybody
else in the in the vision grid. So this
is one example where digitalization
as well as AI applications
helps in and good management because
observability is the biggest hurdle
>> and we're trying to solve this
observability issue.
>> Okay. And you worked on a project
called grid cloud.
>> Yeah.
>> what were what exactly was the
project and how did it apply to the
topic that we have just touched on?
>> Absolutely. so grid cloud is
European initiative. So it's funded
under Aronet funding instrument part
of the EU. It's a transnational
funding scheme and the main focus of
the of the grid cloud project is
digital twins to enable digital twins to
support grid operation. So that's the
main focus of the of the grid cloud
project.
>> so we have different countries
part of the grid project. We have
actually three countries. So it's
Austria, Germany as well as Turkey.
>> Yeah.
>> so we have different use cases that
we are addressing in these three
countries. So I think the most
interesting one right now especially
with the with the climate change is the
Turkish use case
>> where
>> because there there is this this area
called Karabun. So it's a peninsula in
in Turkey in Ismir region of Turkey on
the Mediterranean like right across
Greece
>> and they're they're experiencing
quite a large number of storms and
weather events
>> and that's the reason you have this this
transmission poles right which is
carrying cable because they're overhead
lines in Turkey and they're being
affected. So a lot of them are just
falling off
>> because of the heat
>> because of the storms
>> extremely high wind conditions rain
hail because of that the cables are
being affected and then the poles
just
>> drop because it's so windy because it's
it's the Mediterranean and it's it's
extremely stormy weather and we want to
be able to predict this that it's
it's going to happen somewhere I don't
know in the next 24 hours
>> with weather data with electrical
information that we have also historical
data so that the crew who's
responsible for fixing this issue can
already preemptively start driving or
they're ready that this is going to
happen and they can go and they can
minimize the blackout time so that
our customers are not affected for
for longer than than they should be. You
know, that's the that's the focus
>> and what we were talking just before we
we started shooting about how exactly
these these fundings and how how these
projects work within AIT. if you could
just tell us a bit more about the
structure of project that are under AIT
how are they funded and who are the
stakeholders
>> right yeah so AIT gets one/ird of its
funding from funded projects so
which is for example national
level funding FFG so the Austrian
research promotion agency
>> is one of the funding agencies
that funds projects again this is
like a public call that we as AIT a
research institution we partner up with
with our large network of partners.
So we create a consortia
>> and we come up with a very nice
proposal. We submit to this and then we
win this proposal.
>> Who who are the partners that AIT work
with industry and
>> yeah we have partners from industry from
from public organizations from
from all all sorts of life. So because
we are doing such a complex project
right now so it's not really focused on
one industry anymore..
>> So it's more sector coupling
>> and we are focusing on social
scientists for example, universities and
institutions that focus on social
science. They're also part of the
project. So it's it's quite broad at the
moment. So it's a sector coupled
solutions. So this this is one
funding agency that we apply for
funding to of course the European Union.
So we have the Horizon Europe funding
instruments life of course the
CTP clean energy transition partnership
and so on and so forth. quite a lot
of funding agencies that that that
provide research funding and we also
create a consortia and submit a proposal
to this consort to this call
and we win proposals. So this is
one/ird of the funding bulk. Yeah. And
then the other one/ird is
coming from private contracted
research.
>>. So we contract research or we
contract with the industries and
different companies technology companies
to help develop a prototype for them.
>>.
>> so they may not have the expertise
and knowledge to domain
knowledge to develop this prototype.
>> So we develop it for them and then we
hand it hand it off to them and they
bring it to the market.
>> Okay.
>> So this is the second
funding instrument or or the way we
derive funding. So it's the direct
conduct of research and then the
remaining one/ird is funding from
the government of Austria.
>> Okay.
>> So this is fixed funding that we receive
every year from from the ministry of
innovation of Austria.
>> Yeah.
>> And this enables us to do a lot of
supporting work for the first two. So
all the background research that needs
to be done that cannot be funded
>> from the European Commission or from
the Austrian funding agency is
done with this
>> with this. Yeah. Yeah, this is something
that we discussed before recording. It's
you are bridging the industry with
>> research and academia. So it's it's
amazing.
>> absolutely. So AIT is we
work as a bridge between academia as
well as industry. So it's really
bringing all the low tier low technology
readiness level research so that
universities develop. It's it's very
innovative ideas that they're
developing. So we bridge it. So we build
a prototype or we build a concept that
that goes beyond the low tier
research so that the industry can adopt
it and bring it to the market.
>> Amazing. And maybe something that
you have done in this research if we can
go to the CE region h how do you see the
have you done some research in CE?
>> Yeah so we have multiple
projects. Yeah, absolutely. that we
have worked with the partners from from
the CE region for sure. Austria,
Central European and also Eastern
European regions. Yeah, absolutely. So
we have partners from Romania, Czech
Republic, Bulgaria. Absolutely.
>> And what kind of projects and what
have you seen there in the in these
countries?
>> Yeah. so the European grid is one
grid. So it's a single grid across
across Europe. And the challenges that
we are facing, everybody's facing across
Europe. Yeah. From from Northern Europe,
from from Finland to Portugal. Yeah.
So this is one European grid. Of course,
there are specific national level
challenges that that different
countries across Europe have, especially
in Eastern Europe. We could look at the
energy mix for example. It's more carbon
based
>> compared to Austria. Austria is
strategically located in the Alps. So we
have a lot of hydro power
>> and a lot of wind right now. So that's
that's that's an advantage. but I
think there are countries in Eastern
Europe still transitioning to renewable
energy at the moment and the progress
is incredible. I think
>> they're very fast.
>> Yeah, a lot of countries are really
pushed towards yeah large scale
implementation of renewable energy
projects.
>>. And of course they will now
start facing all the challenges of this
new integration of renewable energy that
we have already faced in central
Europe and Eastern Europe
>> like 5 10 years ago.
>> So all the solutions that can be that
developed and tested actually quite well
tested can be easily implemented in the
Eastern European regions. Can I add
just one thing short answer because Raul
is
no
>> we also see this knowledge gap between
Eastern Europe and Western. How do you
see that it could be better this
knowledge transfer with those
professionals?
>> I would say to create more projects
to create more consorts together with
the with the research entities,
universities, industry partners from
from Eastern Europe to share
knowledge because I think working in a
project together that's funded by the
European Commission or anybody else that
doesn't really matter is extremely
advantageous because we learn from each
other because we attend meetings
together. we have brainstorming
meeting to really discuss all the
issues that we have and then find a
unifying solution. So I think that's
really again I'm coming from the
research point of view. Of course from
the commercial point of view there are
different ways to do this but from the
research point of view it's really to
collaborate and then exchange
researchers. So we from AIT go to a
university in an Eastern European
country or vice versa and that's how you
you build this
>> collaboration collaboration. Absolutely.
Hey you worked a lot with energy
communities as well designing energy
communities and I believe in you
were telling us that in 2018 you already
started working on that.
>> Tell us a bit more about what exactly
energy community means and how you
designed them and what's the benefit of
it.
>> Absolutely. so in 2018 end I think I
don't remember exactly the date at the
moment but European commission
adopted officially the clean energy
package
>> which for the first time put it in
law what an energy community is so
there are two kinds of energy
communities a renewable energy
community
>> and a citizen energy community
>> okay
>> so this is fully defined already so a
renewable energy community is a
community that is local
>> okay So it's it depends on the country
of course and how the regulations are
transposed but it's it's local. So it's
it's one street or or one small
village and if you look at the
the power grid so it's usually a one one
feeder or multiple feeders together.
>> Okay.
>> Are in one community.
>>.
>> So this is a legal entity by the way. So
community is a legal entity
>> and anyone can start it.
>> Anyone can start it. Anyone can be part
of it. So there is of course there are
specific requirements but generally yes.
>> And in citizen energy community it's not
in one location. It can be anywhere
in a country.
>> Okay.
>> So if you are living in Foralberg
I'm living in Vienna. So we can create
energy community together.
>>.
>> Call a citizen citizen energy community
and we can share energy. So in forber if
you're producing a lot of photoike power
you can sell it to me in Vienna.
>> So it's independent of the of the
location. So it can be anywhere in
Austria in a particular country and of
course across Europe. this
transposition has happened in different
ways
>> and it's still happening.
>> Yeah.
>> So currently I'm developing a
study for the European Commission DJNR
on exactly looking at the current
LEC ecosystem across Europe.
>> LC what is that? local energy community
ecosystem
>> across Europe to really check what's
the current status
>> of this transposition so of
the of the EU level regulation into
national laws
>> to see how well it's happen so for
example in Austria it's fully done so
it's been fully transposed of course
there are some challenges that we're
still trying to address in some
countries it's not fully done so there's
only certain parts of it is done and in
in some countries it's absolutely
not done
>> and Austria had a lot of energy
community coming up.
>> Why is that? And what are the
enabling regulation for it?
>> So it's mainly there was this
incentive to create local energy
communities because of the prices.
>>.
>> So couple of years ago due to war you
might already know that the energy
prices were rather high during this time
and there was a lot of investment in
photoalt generation across Europe
mainly Austria. So there's a there's a
bit of a panic buying of PV plants and
that's the reason if you have a photo
volic panel and you would want to
also provide this energy to your family
members. So that's really the main
initiative the main incentive. So you
want to provide your for example
parents living in the countryside they
have a lot of space they have you
know rooftops that they install PVs
with and then there's a lot of excess
energy that they don't use. So they'll
do their children and piano. So
that's really the main focus. I
would say a large number of energy
communities are owned by few people
in Austria, a handful of people.
>> Okay.
>> and of course there are bigger
ones right now, but the incentive is
that that they want to share energy comm
energy across the community. But do
you think that energy community will
play a role
in demand respond
>> side in energy transition
>> right yeah that's a it's a difficult
question at the moment to answer because
the regulations are very stringent so
right now there are very few countries
across Europe where local energy
communities can provide flexibility to I
don't know what to the grid or to
to an aggregator and finally the
aggregator goes to a market. This is not
fully defined at the moment.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. But there is an interest at least
from the European Commission to
see how this could be done.
>>.
>> And that's the reason the study that
I'm I'm doing with the with DJR is
also looking at flexibilities.
>> Okay. And how what could be the
enabling barriers or enabling conditions
and barriers for flexibility inclusion
flexibility extraction from energy
communities.
>> And do you think there could be it
should be done more in the fossil
dependent countries in the eastern
European region such as Poland maybe
>> right
>> should be done more there.
>> Yeah. So from a power system
perspective fossil based generation
especially synchronous generators
are from again from purely power system
perspective they stabilize the grid
way more
>> than renewable energy because renewable
energy is more independent in nature
>> and it's not it's not easily
controllable.
>>.
>> So if you have a lot of fossil based
generation
>> you don't need a lot of flexibility.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah.
>> You have it.
>> That's the reality. Yeah. I'm giving I'm
giving you guys straight. Yeah, that's
that's how it is from the power system
perspective.
>> but that's not what we want. So we
don't we are
>> okay. we're willing to sacrifice
a bit of control to increase the
share of renewable energy.
>>.
>> And renewable energy goes hand in hand
with flexibility.
>> Yeah. And well this is the friend
that you don't want in the room but it's
needed. Do you think that gas will play
a role in the next 10 15 years or
>> glass will gas will of course
play play continue to play a role
because the transition from from
again gas based heating mainly to
electric based heating is happening
right now but it's it takes time to
to replace all the new houses that are
being built in Vienna are have to
be electric heating or they're at
least trying to do that across Austria
as well.
>>. And all the new constructions,
they're of course going to be electric
based. but there's still a lot of
houses that have gas heating.
>> And then it takes a lot of time to
transition this to electric. And it
it's a long process.
>> But not in heating. not only
heating but in electrical generation,
electric generation. Gas will play a
role in this flexibility. this
is anyways not a lot especially in
summer because like you mentioned
>> negative pricing. So there is not
a lot of gas generation anyways in
in summer. In winter sure there are
still gas palants that are active in
Europe but not a lot.
>> Okay.
>> So I don't think gas is going to again
from the electricity point of view not a
lot
>> but heating massive massive
>> massive
>> amazing and because we saw all the
work that you have done so far you
you also designed some P2P market. Yeah.
>> Yeah. This this was part of a project
called blockchain grid project.
>> Yeah.
>> this was I think finished was it four
or five years ago. and this was again
during the whole blockchain hype.
>> we wanted to see if if it's
possible to create a peer-to-peer
energy market within a community in
in Styrark.
>>. So this is actually a real
village where we deploy this
market and there all the customers
who produce electricity can sell
this to their neighbors with the help of
the of the blockchain. So we have smart
contracts. It automatically computes
how much you're producing,
>> how much you're feeding into the grid
and you can virtually sell this power
and you can earn u cryptocurrency
>> and what was the out the outcome of
the study? Is it possible or
>> so the main outcome of the study is
you need to automate it.
>> Okay,
>> automation is the most important thing
because these are microtransactions and
unlike u the European level or or
country level markets, you can't
preemptively
manage this..
>> So it needs to be done automatically.
>> Yeah, that's the main outcome. And of
course, blockchain is losing its edge
at the moment, at least in energy.
There's not a lot of funding and not
a lot of interest in energy in
blockchain. So
>> yeah, it's it's dying down, I would say.
We're at the end of the year of the
whole blockchain, but there's still a
lot of proponents of blockchain who
who really believe in it. but
we'll see how it goes. Yeah, that's
that's what I could say at the moment,
too.
>> For now, we'll leave it to the crypto
guys. Yeah, exactly.
>> Hey, it we were discussing about the
role of academy and industry
collaboration and AIT is doing it
wonderfully and we saw that you are a
research scientist also a business
developer. You're contracting with
bigger industry companies.
>> How tell us a bit more about how you
collaborate with different stakeholders
and what you have to do in to get all
the research going here.
>> Right. Yeah. for the first part
for contractor research.
so it really depends on the
client's requirements.
>>.
>> Yeah. So we have a large
collection of solutions that that we
have developed within AIT. so it
really depends on the on the
requirements of the of the client. So we
have control engineering expertise.
So we have a lot of algorithms, a lot
of prototypes that are controllers
for distribution groups. Again, I'm
of course AIT is quite wide, but I'm I'm
really narrowing it down to
digitalization and power system
applications here.
>> Sure.
>> so we have things related to AI
applications. We have a lot of advanced
forecasting methods, statistation
methods, predictive maintenance
methods that that we can provide
to solution operators
the companies which develop
scatter systems for example the
companies which provide solutions for
local energy communities for example. So
all of these are our clients. So we
develop this based on their needs and
then we provide this prototype to them
and they need to put a lot of effort of
course to bring this to the market
and make it more viable in the market
based on their own requirements.
>> Okay.
>> So this is the first stream. Yeah. This
is really a client relationship AIT
client relationship and then we develop
this exclusively for them.
>> Of course the funded research is more
broad. We have a lot of consorcia
members and we have consorcia members
who are from industry, from academia,
from research
>> with different set of exploitation
criterias that that they need. So
universities mainly focus on
publications. They don't really care
about software solutions for example.
Industrial partners, they care about
software solutions but we need to
test them in the relevant environment to
make sure that they actually work
>> and then they can take it away.
So there's another exploitation plan. So
it's it's very customizable. It's very
diverse. So that's the key here.
>> Yeah. And of course AIT is also doing
spin-offs.
>> Those are who are helping spin-offs and
we have different models how to
transfer the IP the intellectual
property that AIT owns to the startups.
>> That's great. And we were discussing
Daniel about also how successful
spin-off gets to the market and also
about time for them to get into the
market. Tell us about some successful
case studies that
>> Yeah, absolutely. infrared is one of
the highly successful
spin-offs from from AIT. So this
startup is coming out of the group of
digital resilient cities. DRC is
also part of Center for Energy and
they're developing AI tools,
visualization tools, showcases for city
planners.
So if you want to plan a city
>>.
>> if you want to make it more green, you
can in no time actually with
virtual reality, you need to wear some
virtual reality glasses and you're able
to build the city with different
stakeholders. So you can contact
different community owners, you can
contact people who are interested in
in making the city more green. You can
bring just general public into this
design process
>> and really see how what they need
actually
>> and based on this you can design this
this city or a portion of the city or do
renovations for the city
>> and then yeah so you can develop
detailed plans out of it so that the
builders know exactly what to what to
build.
>> Okay. Amazing. And what are your next
research? How do you see the next 5
years?
>> definitely AI applications for
sure. Yeah. so the current research
interest for me is to minimize the
the amount of time it takes to
connect a new power plant.
>>.
>> To the transmission or distribution
grid.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. So if you are for example Rahul
you are interested to build a wind
power plant
>>.
>> in Lower Austria. So you are able to
convince some u venture capitalist
to give you some funding to
build this wind power plant.
>>.
>> But the problem is you should be able to
connect this wind power plant to the
closest medium voltage or high voltage
feeder.
>> This connection takes 9 years.
>> Wow.
>> There's a queue. Yeah.
>> Or Okay.
>> So there's a queue. So you need to get
on this queue even before you start
building anything.
>> Okay.
>> So it takes about 9 years to actually
>> to be able to connect this plant. So in
the meanwhile if you're already finished
with the plant so all the wind wind
turbines are already up and it's
spinning already but you can't
connecting energy
>> you can't connect it.
>> So what do you think that it can be
solved? It's a regulatory challenge or
>> it's a it's both. So of course there's
very stringent regulation on exactly how
to connect this but there's also a
lot of power system simulations that
we need to do
>> to be able to provide this test
report
>> okay
>> and make sure that the win turbines
or whatever generation that is connected
is actually capable of following
some parameters that they need to follow
and we're trying to address this with AI
to make it more fast so that we want to
reduce this this 9 years waiting time by
a factor of I don't know how many
still still the research but
>> whatever it takes. there's
approximately 15 trillion 15 terowatt of
of renewable energy that is sitting
in the queue right now.
>>.
>> Wow.
>> 15 terowatt.
>> We're going to stay aware what is
happening with this study will be
interesting
>> and but just about so also with
research what happens that if it's
taking too long it becomes redundant in
the market. Absolutely.
>> How do you make sure that the
research is up to date with the market
and what's needed in the market?
>> Absolutely. some of the research that
we do is it's quite ambitious. So
they're already 10 years beyond
state-of-the-art.
>> So then we have enough time to catch up
>> at least the solutions we can catch
up and bring it to the market. But there
are some solutions which are
>> maybe one year beyond the market or two
years beyond the market. And then these
research projects are very very long. So
European projects are four years and
yeah completely get that the
products or the research that we do at
the beginning of the four year but at
the end of the project it's already
obsolete and that's the reason I think
we should really focus on creating
more agile project management style. So
I think agility is super important in
research and then this is not currently
being done. So this is one something
that I'm pushing as well
>> within our group to make it more
agile. So we want to have a minimum
viable product.
>> Yeah.
>> Maybe the first year and already try to
look at exploitation with the indust
partners part of the project.
>> So that's one way.
>> Do they function at a startup or already
or that they need to get into the market
they need to be adapt to the market or
they are more orthodox in the
research way first they get the
research on board and then but how how
do they function now?
>> Yeah there are different methods here.
So we can either so the IP that
is generated within the project can be
adopted by the industrial partner
already part of the project.
>>.
>> Or we can go for a startup. So both is
possible. So we can either just license
the solution that is developed within
the project
>> to a partner an industry partner and
they use this license to
>> develop it further and bring it to the
market or we go for the startup
route.
>> Yeah. And it's also possible to put the
startup plan already part of the
proposal
>> for the research project. So Europe
funds this. So EU funds
>> all the prerequisites to fulfill all
the prerequisites for the for the
startup as part of the project.
>> Okay. And
>> this is not being done at the moment. So
there's such a huge gap right now and
nobody is really utilizing this this
opportunity. I think that's where AIT is
really the bridge and then they
they go out of the system of AIT or they
are still within the
>> they will go out of the system of AIT
because AIT will help with all the
knowledge transfer IP of course and all
the initial steps that are needed
to establish this this entity this
this independent entity or a startup
>> and then this will be out of the AI
ecosystem.
Okay.
>> Right. So the invitation is for the
industry to come here and collaborate.
Right.
>> Absolutely.
>> And then they can raise money when once
they are out of the system they can get
in the VC money because before that it's
a funded money from the
>> Exactly. Y so once the independent
entity is created so they can it's it's
out of ecosystem.
>> So they can yeah raise money and then
they can develop the product they can do
whatever they want after that. And do
industries sorry just one more question
about it. Do industries already because
of your partnership they take it to
scale.
>> Yes. So this is also possible. we
recently had a conversation about
corporate venturing
>> or comp corporate clienting as well. So
if there is a particular industry
which is very niche and they're looking
for a very niche product then we develop
it together within a research project
like we always do. funded partially
by public funding from from
research calls basically and then the
startup is created.
>>.
>> And typically big companies they do not
want to assume the risk of the of
this very innovative new solution.
>> Y
>> and that's the reason they do
corporate clienting.
>>.
>> So you have a startup that is a direct
client or the single client of
the startup is this big industrial
partner.
>> Okay.
They fund that and then they're able to
scale it up rather quickly.
>> Okay. Amazing. well maybe to be
closing from here AIT labs you can
see the hear the noise of the like
feeling here in the lab. So maybe
what would you recommend to future
professionals in energy field
researchers
to get into this energy transition
flow?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I
think the most important item
that you need to do is yeah just just
get up and then go around talk to
people and then you can do a lot without
formal education in power system.
So formal education electrical
engineering or energy system. So you can
do quite a lot because the energy
transition is not a problem of
engineers.
It's the problem of citizens.
>> Wow.
>> So, it's anybody who is a citizen of
Europe or across the world
>> is involved in energy transition. So,
it's everybody that that needs to stand
up and then and push for renewable
energy, push for push for more
green solutions across all the sectors,
not just energy, all the transportation
sector, which also needs to be
transitioned to renewable energy.
Basically, all the sectors. Yeah. So I
think that's the most important thing.
>> That's a great statement.
>> Yeah, for sure. And also since you are
doing it successfully, what what would
you tell others why is so needed to
bridge academia industry and research
together? Why why how can also
it be successfully replicated by others?
>> Yeah, absolutely. it's super
important to bridge the all the let's
put it this way all the stakeholders in
the technology readiness level.
>>.
>> So where universities are at the lower
end of the of the spectrum and
industries are at the higher end of the
spectrum..
>> It's very important to bridge all
this this entire entire spectrum because
all innovation like all the amazing
ideas concepts are developed at the
university and the only way to bring
this to the market
>>.
>> is that we have a bridge between all the
different stakeholders along the
technology relevance level because
industry wants something that the
universities have
>> or that they're coming up with.
>> But it's an extremely high feat. to
bring whatever innovation that that this
brilliant minds they come up
with to the market.
>> Theory to reality
>> theory to reality. So this is extremely
challenging.
>>.
>> And that's the reason we need to work
together to involve multiple partners
along the spectrum to push the solution
from theory to reality.
>> That's what we are trying to do to
bridge the all stakeholders. So yeah,
thank you very much for receiving us
here in your lab and I think we're going
to come again.
>> Absolutely. Hey, you're welcome.
>> Because we went to the other lab with DC
solutions and trying and pushing till
the limit the
>> Yeah, why not? We just
>> go there now and ask her a couple more
questions on the way. Yeah, let's do it.
>> Let's see. Okay. Oh,
okay. So, we came here to the other lab
and now
all this equipment is to test DC.
>> Absolutely. Yeah. Right. So,
>> can you tell us a bit more about this
lab and what happens?
>> yeah, sure. so, this is our the
brand new direct current laboratory. So,
this is the DC cube. So, that's what
we call it..
>> So it's a it's a bank of rectifiers
basically. So diode diode bank
>> with rectification element to it and we
can test the protection devices.
So that's the focus of the light. So
DC protection devices
>>
>> in the laboratory with very high
current values.
>> So that is what we want to do. So we
want to pass very high through the
production device and make sure that it
the standard
>> that the devices are supposed to be.
>> Actually we last week we went to inter
solar and we realized that there are
starting to be more DC solutions to
avoid the inverter and just going from
the PV DC bar and then superchargers or
DC loads
>> like a vehicles for example. Yeah. So
how do you see the
>> the like current DC use
>> in electric current?
>> That is the next step
actually. So you're absolutely right. So
we're trying to transition from from
converting from DC. So a lot of DC
renewable energy is DC mainly to AC and
then back to DC. So we can do basically
everything in DC right now because a lot
of electric vehicles are actually all
the electric vehicles are DC. So you
need to like lose some some power
there and it loses AC. Exactly. And
that's the reason DC powers DC devices
are getting a lot of potential right
now.
>> And it's going to be increasing
for sure in the next coming years. DC is
going to be one of the main topics.
>> Okay.
>> And especially when there's renewable
energy, you want to stay in DC to
avoid losses.
>> And we heard some noise. What kind of is
going on? So right now the colleagues
are clearing up I think for
performing the tests. So this is a
commercial laboratory. So we have
clients bringing their devices here
>> to this lab to be able to
>> to be destroyed actually.
>> To be destroyed. Yeah. To be destroyed.
>> Yeah. So that they adhere to the to the
standards that the devices are supposed
to be.
>> And then you certify them.
>> No. A doesn't certify. They provide a we
provide a test report.
>> Yeah. so that they can take this to the
certification agency and then of course
the agency looks through this report
>> and then then they certify the
device
>> and you said most of the clients
that are coming are from Korea and China
>> all over the world all over the world.
So absolutely
>> and AIT is one of its kind. Who does
this report?
>> U for Austrian ecosystem. So you we're
in the smartest laboratory. That's
>> I think one of the only ones in Austria
which provides this test reports for
inverters
>> mainly and this is one of the very few
if not the only one in Europe which does
high voltage or high current DC
testing.
>> Okay. and there were a deer lab that
you mentioned there about how many of
them are
>> I don't know the current number so
probably 30 labs across Europe the labs
initiative
>> yeah just to make a context that this is
a association to coordinate all the labs
across Europe right so to know overlap
work and yeah if you can tell us a
bit more about it
>> yeah so dabs is a European initiative
to it's an association of all the
research laborator countries
>> mainly on renewable energy across
Europe.
>> so we have members from basically all
the countries and the goal was to
establish cooperation between
research institutions so that we don't
develop similar competencies.
So we don't want to overlap our comp
competencies
>> so that we don't basically waste
funding to because it's it's a lot of
funding that that's being used to
develop this this and it takes years to
develop and we don't want to
>> waste it by by developing
competences and compete against each
other.
>> So we want to complement each other. So
I think that's the reason. So if you
have a client with a particular product
so they can go to the their lab
consortia and then they can ask which
laboratory can can do this testing
>> and then that their lab will send it to
us or to any other research laboratory
across Europe.
>> Okay. Maybe we could reach them.
>> Yeah.
>> Totally. I can put you in touch with
them.
>> Daniel is electrical engineer so
he understands everything already but
what's there if you could explain a bit.
>> Yeah. So this is the DC.
>> Show me.
>> Yeah you can we can go inside. Yeah.
>> Okay. Wow. Let's go. We're improvising
here. And
Okay. Amazing.
Wow. Okay. So, so here
>> put it here.
>> Okay. We still have battery. So, we can
do something.
>> Yeah. So the main goal of the DC cube
is to convert electricity from AC
alternate current to direct current.
>> here we have a rack of diodes which
does that in a rectifying
>> in a rectification fashion.
>> Yeah.
>> Wow. This is
>> so you have different diodes.
>> Yeah.
>> Wow. I can here. Yeah.
>> And this is fully customizable. So we
can get multiple combinations of
of voltage and current. So we can have
very high current application. We can
have very high voltage application. So
this is fully customizable.
>> Wow.
>> This is all copper and then there are
transformers right above.
>> Wow.
>> Super. Do you have more questions,
Robert, of this?
>> Yeah, I'm just actually very I feel like
a kid, but it's interesting.
And also if we can go where you blow
up.
>> Yeah, sure.
>> Wow. Yeah.
Oh, this is so amazing.
Wow. Now we are walking through the
lab,
>> the external test chamber.
>> Okay, the external test chamber. So here
you make the test to blow the
this is for the protections right?
>> Yep. Exactly.
>> Amazing. So fuses, protection
devices, relays, circuit breakers, so
on and so forth.
>> And how often these tests happen?
>> quite a lot. Right now it's very busy
>> and that's the reason we are here
super early otherwise this will
already be starting.
>> Yeah, we came here super early just to
for the note.
It
>> is amazing. It worth it.
Okay. So, it has been amazing being
here. Thank you very much for having
us
>> and yeah, I think we can come back for
more insights.
>> It's it's it's really cool.,
especially thank you for taking ush
for the spin in the in the lab because
>> being in the office is always fun, but
it's it's it's about people behind the
energy and also in the environment that
they work in.
>> 100%. So thank you Barrett.
>> Thank you so much.
>> Thank you very much and probably see you
again.
>> Yeah absolutely for
>> another interview. So
>> thank you for the community for watch
the interview and stay tuned for the
next episode. See you there.