S2E05

From Lab to Industry : Bottlenecks of Decarbonizing Heavy Industry in CEE | Prof. Harasek | S2E5

with Prof. Michael Harasek· TU Wien· 60m

TL;DR

Professor Harasek discusses chemical engineering solutions for industrial decarbonization, emphasizing green hydrogen, carbon capture, and critical policy frameworks.

Synopsis

Prof. Michael Harasek, a chemical engineer from TU Wien, details his work on separations engineering, biomethane, and green hydrogen. He highlights the energy intensity of traditional industrial processes and the potential for membrane technologies, chemical heat storage, and green hydrogen to decarbonize heavy industry, particularly for high-temperature applications. The discussion extends to the critical role of academia-industry collaboration, the challenges of technology transfer, and the need for supportive policy frameworks to overcome deployment barriers. Harasek also touches on carbon capture as a transition technology, the circular economy, and the impact of AI, while advocating for increased investment in applied research and reforms in the European grant system.

Key metrics

by the numbers · 7

22-23%
Energy system electrification
1 MW
Biomethane pilot capacity
35-42%
Gas engine electrical efficiency
>90%
H2 from natural gas production
1
Ohmic heating COP
2%
European grant success chance
98%
Iron/steel recycling rate

Topics

9 tags

Separations engineeringBiomethane productionGreen hydrogenCarbon captureIndustrial heat pumpsAcademia-industryPolicy frameworksCircular economyAI in engineering

Stats

Duration: 1h 00m
Words: 9.2k
Questions: 17

Timeline

10 chapters

Introduction to Prof. Harasek's Background
Prof. Michael Harasek is introduced, and the topic of thermal energy, its role in energy transition, and his background in technical chemistry and separations engineering are discussed.
Separations Engineering and Energy Efficiency
Prof. Harasek details his research in separations engineering, focusing on reducing energy demand for processes like distillation and desalination using novel technologies such as membranes.
Biomethane Production and Grid Injection
Harasek recounts his first energy-related project in 2006: managing a 1 MW pilot facility to upgrade biogas to biomethane for injection into Austria's natural gas grid, highlighting its visionary nature given later gas price increases.
Green Hydrogen for Industrial Decarbonization
The discussion shifts to green hydrogen, emphasizing its potential to decarbonize high-temperature industries (e.g., refining, metallurgy, glass) and its production from fluctuating renewable sources, requiring storage and transport solutions.
Academia-Industry Collaboration & Impact Metrics
Prof. Harasek stresses the importance of academia interacting with industry to develop applicable technologies, aligning research with industrial needs, and measuring success beyond publications to include patents and real-world impact.
Carbon Capture and Sequestration
The role of carbon capture technologies for decarbonizing coal-fired plants in Central and Eastern Europe is explored, including membrane and cryogenic methods for CO2 separation, liquefaction, and underground storage, noting its energy intensity.
Electrification vs. Hydrogen for Industrial Heat
Harasek differentiates the application of heat pumps (low-temperature processes) and hydrogen (very high-temperature processes >1000°C or as a chemical reactant) for industrial heat, advocating for hydrogen's strategic use.
AI, Circular Economy, and Critical Minerals
The potential of AI in chemical engineering for process optimization, predictive maintenance, and accelerating simulations is discussed. The conversation then moves to the circular economy, proper waste resource utilization (e.g., agricultural residue for biogas), and the challenge of critical minerals in new technologies like MOF-based separations, emphasizing recycling.
Policy Barriers and Investment for Renewables
Harasek identifies policy barriers to renewable energy deployment, such as grid access for biomethane and hydrogen, and challenges in permitting for solar and wind. He highlights the need for a strong policy framework and market stimulation (e.g., European Hydrogen Bank) to drive investment.
Challenges in European Research Grants & Career Advice
The inefficiency of European grant applications due to low success rates is criticized, advocating for pre-election processes or increased funding. Harasek concludes with advice for chemical engineers: master fundamentals (thermodynamics, balancing), embrace interdisciplinary learning, and consider entrepreneurship.

Key insights

5 takeaways

01
Hydrogen as 'Champagne' Fuel
Green hydrogen should be reserved for high-temperature industrial processes (>1000°C) or as a chemical reactant (e.g., steel production), not for low-temperature heating, due to its clean origin and high value.
02
Academic Impact Beyond Publications
Traditional academic success metrics like publication count can lead to a 'publishing machine' without real-world impact. Patents, successful spin-offs, and industrial application are equally important measures of research value.
03
Carbon Capture: Energy-Intensive Transition
While carbon capture and sequestration can reduce emissions from fossil fuels, the processes of collecting, liquefying, and transporting CO2 are highly energy-intensive and may create secondary emissions, making it a temporary solution.
04
Bridging the 'Valley of Death'
Significant investment is needed in applied research and pilot facilities to scale up innovative technologies from lab concepts (TRL1) to commercialization, overcoming the financial gap known as the 'valley of death'.
05
Inefficiency in Grant Applications
The current European grant system suffers from extremely low success rates (e.g., 2%), leading to a massive waste of academic resources (effort, time, manpower) on unsuccessful proposals. Pre-election processes or increased funding are needed.

Pull quotes

5 quotes

What is sometimes misunderstood is that my field here is in German. It's called u termafar technique. it has to do with heat. It has to do a lot with energy but it has also to do a lot with substances.
Prof. Michael Harasek
Some say there is a saying that green hydrogen is kind of a champagne. Yes.
Prof. Michael Harasek
My alma mater here has as a as a motto and that is technicion technology for people.
Prof. Michael Harasek
Working with industrial partners like big partners in general is I think to develop a perception yes of their needs.
Prof. Michael Harasek
There was always a saying and still there and it still has a certain truth and that this publisher perish if you want to be successful in academia you have to publish then
Prof. Michael Harasek

Transcript1374 cuesClick a timestamp to jump

Welcome to a new episode from the energy
bridge. today we are inside TV to
interview one of our professors in the
master of science in renewable energy.
Mr. Michael Harrisk. Thank you for
accepting the invitation. Today we're
going to explore
>> we are going to explore thermal
energy and it's something that we are
trying to foster that in energy
transition we are only 22 23%
electrified and the restit heat so what
to what to do with it and you have a
really interesting projects going on
so we're going to go into it
>> it's my great pleasure to talk to
talk a little bit more about it. yes
so maybe maybe my background I did a
study here at Tioin of technical
chemistry.
>>.
>> and after my my master's degree I
continued in with my PhD at the
institute of chemical
and environmental engineering then
and here my topic was separations.
What is sometimes misunderstood is that
my field here is in German. It's
called u termafar technique. it has
to do with heat. It has to do a lot with
energy but it has also to do a lot
with substances. So one of my
research focuses has been since then
separations separations engineering and
separations on a molecular basis are
exciting. So that means actually
splitting mixtures. We all know about
distillation
getting ethanol from a mix with water.
we all know that distillation is
done in refineries in the classical
fossil refineries where we have this
technology quite well developed to
get our gasoline to get kerosene to
get all the fractions including
very light and very heavy heavy
fractions here. and this is all
separations engineering and as such
this field is of course also wider
now because the conventional
technologies are very much
related to high energy demand. So here
improving processes using novel
technologies like membranes and
similar to reduce the energy impact
and the energy consumption specific
energy consumption for a separation
problem. Yeah, this is one of those
points.
>> So you are mentioning something that
could be used in energy efficiency but
also carbon capture for example.
>> Yes, carbon capture is a very
interesting and upcoming technology as
you mentioned but before I want to
like you give another example of a
very energyintensive
>> topic and that is seawater dalination.
Now we have to we have to challenge
the sweet water supply, fresh water
supply, drinking water supply has become
a major issue that also develops
into big conflicts worldwide. We hear
that rivers the water of rivers
is used in another country and then the
other country suffers from not having
the water access etc. So therefore
alternative aquifers like the sea and
also brackish water, salted water,
salinated water as a water resource has
become more more interesting. And here
new technologies not distillation that
cost a lot of energy to evaporate the
water and condense it again. But
membrane based technology where like
seawater reverse osmosis for instance is
>> what are the current technology being
used in a lot in Israel and UAE and
other
>> mixed terma and also reverse osmosis. So
so and other membrane technologies and
we are separations engineers. Now coming
back to my original introduction, we
we try we try very hard to develop
innovative and alternative solutions
with low energy impact less thermal
energy demand.
>>.
>> to reach the same separation
purpose. Yeah. But just let me introduce
me shortly further. I did my career
here at TIN. After my PhD here, I got a
a position here to continue my
research and my activities founding
my own research group. Luckily, I had
this opportunity here.
>> What is it about or
>> the original the original topic was on
computational fluid dynamics actually
and fluid flow.
>> Okay.
>> Because there there is an old Latin word
that says everything flows panta. So,
so, so that means in chemistry,
in chemical engineering, in energy
technology, we always are in touch in
contact with fluids.
>> So, that means knowing about fluid flow,
know about mixture, know mixing of
fluids, separation of fluids, pumping,
transportation of fluids is a
very hot topic. And so, I
>> as a chemical engineer, I thought, well,
why not jump into this topic and
then u proceed further. So I found
I founded my my research group which was
called computational fluid dynamics then
it's still the same name but we do lots
of things now but in originally we
started very much into
>> computational fluid flow to
understand the behavior in chemical
processes in reactors in pipelines in
in separation units wherever we
have the need to look inside
without having the chance to look side
and that is wherever it's very hot where
it's closed we cannot look into hot
processes. So we can only model it and
then get a better understanding and
extrapolate our findings and apply it
to the improvement of an
industrial processes and process and
with this actually I advanced also
with a team a research team that I
could found from projects in the
last decades.
>> Yeah. How how was this approach to
energy?
>> And my approach my first my my my
first approach to energy was again a
material-driven one and that was that
was to look at renewable methane
biomethane more specifically and
and as you may know biomethane can be
produced from biogas and biogas can
produce that you gave us.
>> I remember that. so that means we
have a here a fermentation process
usually a digestion process anorobic
digestion of various feed stocks of
wastes also and they can be
converted actually by the microorganisms
to me and CO2 and but the methane
this methane CO2 mixture which is called
biogas is not ready for a substitute for
the natural gas but if you separate it
upgrade it split it into the pure
methane and the pure CO2
then it could be interesting and
and again this is a separation problem,
a gas mix gas separation problem and so
so that was my my my my first you
know very closely energy related
project that I did and I was happy to be
a project manager of such a facility
pilot facility at a capacity 1 megawatt
it's quite something
>> on renewables 1 megawatt
>> back in the time in
>> 20 years ago. That was in 20 that was in
20 20 in 2006. So and
and here I was project manager of
that project to inject the biomeane for
the first time in Austria into the gas
grid as a substitute. That was exciting
because
>> project was that
>> that project was originally called VS
Biogas and it was together with in a
park and with Biogas Pantala in
south of Vienna. It's like 40 kilometers
southeast of Vienna. There is still a
big biogas plant and then when we
started this project all of the energy
all of the biogas was actually converted
to electricity and gas engines. But
we have to understand that a gas
engine has shows quite a low electrical
efficiency. Usually it's 35 38 up to 40
maybe the best ones maybe 41 42%. So
which is which means there's a lot of
off heat and in a decentralized
environment like in a rural biogas plant
that is away from villages the
utilization of the heat as a byproduct
from the gas engine is very difficult.
Yes there there were also then u
projects to feed this heat into a
district heat heating grid small grid
which is which is a good option but
the there's the summer winter
situation. Yeah. So
>> also it's not used here as a fuel but
like in India and other South Asian
countries.
>> Yeah, you can cook you can cook with it
directly also with biogas. I know this I
know this is
>> as compressed natural gas.
>> Yes. Yes, of course. Yeah, that that is
that is also for mobility purposes and
and as a fuel supply that that's an
option too. Bio CNG you can also do it
for biomethane. Here the idea was to
feed it into the gas grid and then
substitute natural gas and we know today
that that that was a times when the
natural gas was very cheap and it was
all mostly important imported from
Russia. some domestic production
was there too. Yeah. And so everyone
said okay biometain is more expensive.
Yeah. Okay. Yes. Now now we are 20
years later we're quite visionary
with what we did then in this in this
regard u and now we see that that
everyone wants to have biomintain as a
substitute because it's green it is
produced from waste we have
quite quite a very feasible integration
also the times when the bgas was
produced from energy crops is gone so
now now we have this good focus on
waste and also the regulatory
framework is better. yeah, but that
that was my first touch with coming back
to the original story line. that
was my first touch into and
getting in contact with the energy
business with energy supply systems
with grids with operators that do
that do that do gas supply etc. And
and that that moved onwards. we
had then a couple of projects here where
I was also partnering looking at
chemical heat storage chemical the
thermmochemical energy storage. So to
utilize chemical reactions to store heat
and then receive the heat again with a
reverse reaction. So that means you have
a reaction of a with B to C and then
when you split C you can get A and B
again and recover heat or or
or or or store heat whatever
that a b and c the components are and
this is still this is still an emerging
field. we see there are there are
some challenges still to be to be
considered. and the other energy
topic that I focused very much on
and still focus very much on is
hydrogen. Green hydrogen in particular
>> because green hydrogen offers also
the chance to decarbonize. So that means
also reduce CO2 emissions of course
>> basically to obey factors.
>> Fully agree with you. I think
some say there is a saying that green
hydrogen is kind of a champagne. Yes.
So
>> Okay.
>> And you wouldn't drink champagne on
an everyday every occasion basis.
Yes. Cheers.
>> But rather use it efficiently because of
its origin, because of its
cleanliness, its its quality and also
its potential..
>> So to use hydrogen just to
substitute natural gas for heating is
not probably not the best best way or
use it in low temperature processes.
but it's a chemical resource that we
nowadays still produce at the rate of
more than 90% in some countries up to
99% from natural gas. Yeah. So by
reforming
>> that's blue.
>> That's gray hydrogen. Gray hydrogen.
>> That's very gray.
>> Okay. So we take fossil natural natural
gas and then just by by using a
catalytic reform reforming we split it
into carbon monoxide and hydrogen and
then transfer the carbon monoxide with
water to even more
>> hydrogen. but we release CO2 to the
atmosphere. So all the carbon from the
natural gas is released as CO2
>> and so therefore this hydrogen is not
green it's yes. and to
substitute also this hydrogen resources
that's in the refining businesses in the
metalological industries in high
temperature industries the glass
industry ceramics etc should be the
first option and the first priority.
>>.
>> Utilizing hydrogen and what it
also means is green hydrogen is produced
from fluctuating energy resources. So
that means photoortikes, wind etc. And
this requires actually also to
manage a continuous hydrogen supply
by combining the production with
transportation and storage. These are my
current some of my current research
topic in the energy.
>> No, that's amazing. the sector.
>> One thing that we want to compliment
you about as well that you're I'm I'm
sure that a lot more academia needs to
interact more with the industry and
you're one of them that who's constantly
in touch with industry. But what do you
what do you say when people say the
academic research it stays in academia?
It doesn't go to industry for
implementation. we can always look back
and look into into what my
alma mater here has as a as a motto
and that is technicion technology for
people. So it's our our our
responsibility as researchers u at the
tuin at the at the technical university
of Vienna to develop technologies
that have a chance at some point to be
rolled out
>> and can be applied to the benefit of
the people. With this in mind with this
in mind we cannot just move
move into our ivory towers. Yes. far
away from from the world and from the
people but we have to interact with the
industry. We have to interact also. We
have to look at socio socioeconomic
effects. We have to do life cycle
analysis with at an early stage
with our ideas when we want to
technologies when we want to develop
technologies for an industrial
application. And so therefore I
think I'm I'm I'm one of those that
definitely promote the interaction with
the industry that still requires of
course also one aspect. I think
research also should have a share of
a budget and of resources for blue sky
topics. So that means topics that are
disruptive that may never actually
become a technology but with a certain
ch chance because otherwise innovation
is not possible. So, so it has to
be a mix working with the industry
solving everyday problems there also
implementing new technologies in the
industrial sector but at the same time
also combine and be ready
also for disruptive crazy ideas and
establish an environment at the
university and that's what I do with my
team with my research team to say okay
let's let's
>> try let's let's try crazy things yes and
>> okay good and that's regard that
university working with industry four
people. you have a project about
gas separation with some industry here
in Austria.
>> Yeah.
>> OMB for example. How has been the
experience working with one of the
biggest refineries working in gas
separation and which challenges can be
in this topic like working with the
industry in this sector
>> taking the innovation from the research
to the industry.
>> Yeah. No that's that this was our our
first our first hydrogen related
project was called highly pure and we
did this with OMV. And here the
idea was to develop a blending
and a deb blending technology with of
hydrogen. So to utilize natural gas
pipelines by adding hydrogen and
removing it downstream somewhere and
this downstream removal and separation
technology we call it deb blending. So
after mixing they separate this again.
This was our target in the in the in the
in the research and or working with
industrial partners like big partners in
general is I think to develop a
a perception yes of their needs.
Yeah. Because the industry has different
timelines has different targets.
so also here here to offer
outputs
>> to align kind of
>> to and align align align align the
vision of the industry the targets of
the industry the goals of why why
does the industrial sector you work with
approach you at all or wants to
develop a certain technology. This is
this understanding and also the
openness to understand this is I think
in a very important success factor or
key success for factor in such a
corporation. This doesn't mean that we
as academics or as the academic sector
sell our performance our our our
output directly to the industry but
doesn't mean that at all I think in
in a good cooperation and the one that
you addressed here with OMV it was
such that also some of the output or
some of the research that we could do
during this project was actually also
strategic and that even allowed us to
develop
at the end or after the end of the
project further technologies that
resulted in a in a in a in a patent
prize and things like that. So that
means also disruptive new ideas that
came out of the original project but
we actually delivered what our
partner wanted in such a cooperation.
>> So was a success and they were happy
afterwards with the innovation. I
believe I believe so because we
we gave them in their hands the
the potential actually to
apply the ideas and also what's
important is when you work with
industry is always to look at aspects of
the economics. So what does it cost in
the end? How much is it? And if we talk
about hydrogen and with hydrogen what is
the what is the cost of such a deep
blending technology for instance? So in
the end I think in such applied
research environments we have to look
at that at that aspect as well and make
ourselves also ready have a background
have a certain understanding
>> and also
actually look at the numbers in this
regard as well. Yeah.
>>.
>> One of the question that we wanted to
also ask you how how we go forward about
success metrics of academia
maybe in the sense of patent that can be
commercialized or maybe CO2 captured or
any other creative manner so that we
know that it's going beyond papers.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's I of
course there was an and
there was always a saying and still
there and it still has a certain truth
and that this publisher perish if you
want to be successful in academia you
have to publish then and this this
developed into hush factor into number
of citations and in all this but this
is only a part of the truth because
nowadays we also see that that
this focus has actually turned turned
some parts in the academia into a yes
publishing machine more or less a
machine. This the only thing that we
have there not so much considering
quality aspects and really impact
innovation and impact. Yes. So and
and as such we have to be we have to be
very careful looking at these numbers.
it's also when when I when when we
have openings job openings and we
we get international applications we
we look at the publications yes but
also how much was done by the let's
say a PhD student postto who who
actually who actually applies to an open
position rather than then just look
at the numbers so what what was the
project and what was the impact of the
project where he or she was in
>> I think that is equally important.
Patterns of course have become also a
more important measure than ever in
particular at the at universities
that are more in the technical fields in
the in the natural sciences field.
because a patent itself has a chance
actually also to generate to generate
licensing fees and could be an entry
point an entry to a successful
corporation with an industrial partner
but at the same time also offers
opportunities for spin-off startups
etc. Tio also with its current
directory has a clear policy to foster
patents and to increase
the number of success successful
hopefully successful spin-offs and
startups. so that means here I think
it is also a management question
of the respective university to
support and form a climate a climate
and a support for innovations towards
patterns. So that means we as a
researchers actually we have to think
before we publish whether the idea that
we have and the news that we have and
the novel the novelty the novel data
that we have might actually also be
ready for patenting and this mindset we
have to train also our young researchers
that they cooperate in this direction
further.
>> Yeah. And we as mentors as the old ones
we have also to see the potential
with our experience.
>> Yeah. Because we think that academia
should be measured not only by papers
but only with all other metrics. So if
we can help with that more than happy.
and now we wanted to ask you were
again from separation of fluids in this
case gases.
thinking about Eastern Europe that
they still have coal fire plants. how
to use this technology membrane
c creogenic
membrane to separate carbon from
these plants to make retrofit or carbon
capture to kind of decarbonize
being part of the process.
decarbonization of the industrial sector
in sectors where and in countries
where there is
80 90% fossile fossile energy supply as
you mentioned coal is still in couple
of countries of the of
central and eastern Europe is a
relevant is a relevant fuel that is used
because it's available it's maybe even
domestically within the country
available so why not use it yes and so
therefore It is also a question how can
we actually how can we actually reduce
also the emission from fossile energy
>> fossile fossil fuel consumption. Yes.
>> And here here are certain potentials but
of course we have to understand
that also these are limited. So
short time it is possible for instance
to for coal for instance to
collect the to collect the CO2 to
separate the CO2 which this this this
bundle of technologies that we have
today are called carbon capture
technologies. So that means we have a
combustion process and then we try to
collect this CO2 as pure as possible
maybe also liquefy it in a cryogenic
way. So that means we make liquid CO2
and then we bring it to an underground
storage which is called carbon capture
and cesquestration. Okay. So if we could
go a bit deeper how it works like this
membrane createnic
>> what is the
>> so one one of the options is as you say
we can actually combine any kind
of CO2 separation process that could
that includes membranes as a first step.
Could also be imal absorption. It could
also be an absorptive process to collect
and increase the concentration of CO2 to
a certain level. And then when
when this CO2 shall actually be brought
into underground reservoirs u that
are ready for it, it requires very high
quality of the CO2 with the target
not to damage the storage site with the
contamination. So that's also the reason
why the CO2 that's actually collected
from a flu gas for instance from a
combustion process should be quite
clean. And so one of those second step
is also to make it transportable is
with a lot of energy consumption again
is to liquefy the CO2. So that means we
cool it down to very low temperatures
and get the liquefification
>> and then this that also reduces the
volume
>> and then we can use actually
insulated tanks and also
transported by railway or so.
>> This is a transition technology that's
very important. Everyone says okay yes
well now we have the technology but we
have to consider that anything that we
do to collect the CO2 to liquefy it to
transport it to bring it into an
underground reservoir
>> is energy intensive and it creates
maybe also secondary emissions yeah
so as such as such looking into the CE
countries yeah that may still suffer
from a lot of fossil energy
consumption I we in Austria we also have
still quite a high level of that. But we
have a clear a clear decarbonization
and net zero strategy
that was issued by our government and
and as such I think the only way to get
out of this is to reduce the consumption
of force and this can only be done this
by substituting the forides with
renewables. Yeah. hydropower, photoics,
wind, these are these are these are and
maybe biomass. Yes. Okay. Biomass is
also to be considered here and in
particular big countries that have a
a large biomass potentials. Why not also
look at that? Yes. that is I think
that's also interesting for us as
chemical engineers because we look a lot
in conversion technologies to
utilize the biom biomass first on a
material basis and then also harvest the
energy. So, so also this is exciting but
but other than that this is this is the
only way for natural gas. there
is also a reported technology that comes
into discussion now and that is
pyrolysis. So that means methane as you
may know is CH4. So it's carbon and
hydrogen only. So what can be done is
actually to split away the hydrogen and
recover the carbon as pure carbon as
black carbon. and this is a
technology that is at the moment at a
certain level TRL level and is being
discussed. but it has to be noted
that this is a transition technology as
well because we use still the fossile
natural gas. Yes, we consume it, split
it into carbon that can be that does
not create the CO2 emission which is
right. and we harvest the hydrogen
but the paralysis itself is an energy
demanding endothermic process. So it
needs a lot of energy as well. so as
such the recovery of the energy from one
molecule of methane is much much
much less when when we burn it in
relation to when we just when we just
split it and recover the
hydrogen as an energy source. so in
the end both sides have to be abandoned
at some time.
>> Yeah.
>> and that must be the clear target
also for C countries
>> going forward. one of the debate that is
you touched upon that hydrogen
should be like champagne and
>> it's currently champagne because it's
expensive and could be cheaper.
>> So the whole thing about
electrification versus hydrogen where
you should you think the industry should
prioritize the heat pumps and where they
should have green hydrogen. We know that
currently the industrial heat pump
that does not have the high temperature
range but still just for the
understanding of the community as well
like if you could tell us where is the
difference lies between electrification
and hydrogen where they can be used
separately for industrial processes.
>> Thank you for this for this very
relevant question actually. Well, heat
pumps as you as is as as as you
may know allow the increase of
the exergy. So that means heating
increasing the temperature of a heat
source. So we what a very good heat
source is the environment. So in heat
pumps we can actually we can actually
recover the heat from the environment
which is at low temperature is at
ambient at 20 or 15 or even lower in the
winter even lower and pump this and
bring the temperature of that of that
enthalpy yeah to a higher level yeah to
the output level and that depends if
it's a single a single stage or a
two-stage heat pump then the this
temperature difference between the in
and the out can be higher. Yeah. So we
remove heat at low temperature level and
provide heat at high temperature level.
And for this pumping we need
electricity. And the ratio of the amount
of heat of energy that we pump in
relation to the electricity input what
is called coefficient of performance.
So the higher this this value is the
better is the is the is the heat pump
technology..
>> and of course the higher the
spread is between low temperature and
high temperature also the more difficult
it gets and usually the cop this
coefficient of performance gets lower.
Heat pumps are for sure low temperature
technologies. Yeah. So that means
when high temperature heat is required
in a process it can be provided
either by electricity directly but when
we use omic heating that's called
omic heating we just have an we just
have the electrical current
flowing and that generates heat in a in
a in a resistor that's omic heating and
here the coefficient of performance is
just one
>> so it's can never get higher so here. So
here as such as such omic heating
omic heating is for certain high
temperature application is an option but
also here we have limitations these
are material aspects. Yeah. and for
the very high temperatures I this
are temperatures above a th00and
degrees. Yeah. we can only rely on
on combustion technologies or high
temperature conversion technologies. And
here hydrogen may come into place
where hydrogen is either is either
burnt or or or reacted at very high
temperature and as such for high
temperature process hydrogen could
actually substitute what we use now that
is natural gas for instance. Yes. and
and furthermore also for we have
lots lots of other high temperature
processes where the function of our fuel
is not just for creating heat in the
combustion but also as a reactant. Yeah.
So for instance in the production of
steel of iron and steel methane
reduces the iron ore to pure ion
to elemental iron and this this can
be actually also be done by hydrogen so
hydrogen as a reducing agent as a
chemical agent and so that's the reason
why I consider the use of hydrogen in
the industrial sector as that that what
is use it as a champagne so use it
wherever Ever we have very very high
temperature processes processes.
>> Two things to add that we went to your
office and you had some thesis topic to
be taken and there is one which is maybe
interesting for someone which is
hydrogen burners.
>> Yes,
>> that's a good one. And the other
thing is since you have said that it's
in high in higher temperatures it's not
possible to use heat pump which will be
a solution for electrifying the
industry. It's we knew about a
project from AIT Australian Institute of
Technology that they are researching
about high temperature hip in the
pharmacy industry. So we are very
pending or what's happening where's the
outcome of this project because it's
is going to be released the results
in September or October this year. Now
we are in August.
>> Oh okay.
>> so yeah it's it's very relevant
topic and since we are in the AI era
which solutions do you see that AI could
address in your field of research?
AI or most of the AI tools and
techniques are not so new as we
believe. Working with data, machine
learning, artificial neural networks,
they have been around for more than
more than 20 years or even longer.,
we had fuzzy controllers at some point.
Yeah, you can buy a camera that has a
fuzzy focusing system or something like
that. Which is actually also algorithmic
wise AI. Yes. Because it uses data and
then takes action, does something with
it. And for us in chemical
engineering and also in the energy
technology, rethinking AI tools
is something that is currently ongoing.
the potential is huge. Yeah. And
that is combining data science. So
the data the data of existing processes
the data that we create in the
process control of our plants of our
equipments. Yes. these these can be
harvested actually and also used
for the sake of predicting
certain phenomena for extrapolating
improving process conditions
optimization
or also u predictive maintenance. So
that we see that we see from the
patterns of our data we see a
development that goes into let's say the
failure of a piece of equipment. we have
more vibrations that we have a higher
temperature that we see something that
there's all of a sudden there is a
change and that actually is something
that we see so using databased
tools we call it AI let's say yes
in the as an everyday as an everyday
procedure in the in the in the data
analysis of our existing plants where
we do the process control the sensors
everything that is something that is
very interesting
>> but also I think that we do a lot in
chemical engineering with our computers.
So, so we do modeling, we make
process simulation, we do computational
fluid dynamics
>> and u these are still highly
computational intensive even higher
computation intensive than AI tools
because they are also computationally
extensive and we hear about the energy
consumption of AI of large
language models etc.
but here combining combining our
incilico methods so the computational
methods with data scientific approaches
AI tools will actually speed up
our computations and reduce the efforts
and here we are still at the
beginning bringing AI and the
combination of AI with our data that we
generate from models from simulations
but also from experiments
>> to more simulations in less time.
>> Yes. Or not to make any simulations at
all anymore, but develop a model or
an equation or or lookup tables
or or even also an AI based
information that we can generate without
doing the simulations anymore. So we do
a certain bunch of simulations and then
put them into the database and let them
let them be analyzed by our machine
learning tool whatever we use. Yes.
You've worked a lot with the
bio-refineries and circular economies.
What do you think about agricultural
residue being used as a supplement or
you replace it for the gas in food
processing?
>> Using our resources properly
and renewable resources in particular is
a key success factor for the
transition of the of the energy system.
Yeah. So that means that means these
resources what happens with waste
what happened with waste in the past?
Yes. They were just let there and they
degraded slowly by microorganisms
contaminated maybe our our soil or our
our our water reservoirs, our aquifers.
And if we do that in a controlled way in
a biogas plant, we can we can harvest
the nutrients in the liquid phase
and we can harvest the energy in the gas
phase and we can maybe even harvest
water by you by applying separation
technologies
on the liquid. Yes. So, so with all this
with all this we have a much
better a much better situation because
we can sub substitute looking at the
nutrients we can substitute fossile
based fertilizer production. Yeah,
ammonia is still very very fossil based
because we still use a lot of natural
gas for the production of hydrogen for
the production of ammonia. So if we if
you if you in a circular in a
circular economy or circular bioeconomy
regime, we should actually also recycle
and loop loop our fertilizers
phosphorus and a highly highly valued
element now or or some potassium and the
others that can be done. So, so that
means using waste bows
is for sure if you do it right. Yeah.
is for sure a good solution a
good solution in particular for the
rural environments.
>> Yeah. Cool. And now maybe moving into
policy wise, do you see some barriers or
what should be enabled to
to have more deployment of carbon
capture solutions or more chemical
solutions in energy sector? Have you
seen some barrier in the in the policy?
>> There are barriers in the policy for
sure. that's that's
something that will always be
there. but what is important for the
roll out of renewable energy is a
good policy framework at national basis,
regional basis but also super national
basis.
in the European Union for instance
which which means which means that
reducing the barriers for instance for
for
hydrogen or for biomeane we have some
directives to have nondiscriminatory
access
for renewables. Yes. But still it may be
a problem actually for a renewable
energy producer to get access to the
grids to the what it's a gas grid or
whether it's an electricity grid. so
so here we see we see we see
barriers I also see barriers of course
in the market yeah in a renewable energy
market in a in a biomeane market or in
the development of a hydrogen market.
And here there are I think good
approaches now with the European
hydrogen bank actually also to
stimulate a market because if there's a
market if there's demand and this is a
driver actually also for the investment
into renewables in the production of the
electricity and in the conversion to
hydrogen with electrolyer technologies.
And so this is these are all
instruments actually that we reduce
the barriers and allow actually
also the roll out here. But barriers we
also see for instance a lot in the in
the in the in the installation of
electricity via photovox wind. You
cannot just yeah get get not even get or
combine agri water volts for instance as
as I think a high potential approach
to combine agricultural use of land with
the production of electricity and at the
same time may even have an advantage on
the water on the on the water
consumption because of shading etc
and on the on the on the growth of
fruits or or or or or agriculture
products in a better way in
very hot and dry regions. and still
there are barriers actually because of
the landscape because Okay. So we have
to actually look at these aspects
as well. Same same with wind turbines.
We see that there is a growing
opinion in the in the public actually
not to have anymore. Yeah. and
and this is a problem that I
think that has can only be solved
mutually together with the
people yeah but also with a good
regulatory framework
>> and what do you think is happening now
in terms of heat in Austria in terms
of let's say the other eastern
European countries they are still
reliant and can Austria do some
technology transfer take the leadership
role for those countries countries help
them.
>> Heat. Heat. We have to distinguish
between heat for the industry and for
the end users to provide hot water
and the district heating in the
in the houses and in the buildings. And
looking at that at that what we
see in Austria is that in the in the
more congested areas like in the cities
meanwhile strongly developed district
heating grid. So a hot water grid that
supplies actually the end user. and
this mo means also that we have a move
out from natural gas utilization
having boilers local boilers but
rather have a connection to this this
kind of grid and in less
congested areas the heat
pump is for sure an option and
I think also here Austria for
some time had a had a very interesting
funding regime so that also to
to foster and support
private people just people to
just move out from their fossile
heat production into a green heat
production by either applying a photoic
system on the roof or electricity
storage or having heat pumps
installed and not anymore an oil
boiler system. And also for
industries
>> of course here too. this what you
mentioned already the industrial
heat pumps the big heat pumps are for
sure an interesting technology but
also a transition of the
technologies that are applied.
>>.
>> So that means actually the amount of
heat that the production of a unit piece
of thumb of a product requires can
be reduced. Yeah. so that means also
the industry I think is aware that
the stakeholders and decision makers
are aware of the of the potential. What
we need is an investment
friendly environment. Yeah. That also
supports decision to invest into into
low energy demanding technologies. Yeah.
At all levels. So speaking about
investment, we have a question now that
it's what would you fix in energy
sector with 100 million euros to
accelerate energy transition?
>> I'm still from academia.
>>.
>> And what we need still need is
investment into innovative solutions. So
that means that means for sure a big
share
>> of that money I would definitely invest
into applied research. So R&D activities
having pilot labs having
>> and allowing also to have a
an overcome of what we call the value
of death. As when you develop a
technology it's good in the lab you
start with an idea that's TRL1 and then
moving to the first proof of
concept and so on and at some point it
gets expensive a lot of money actually
to overcome it and to make a
technology to bring it to the rim
of commercialization and that means also
to attract investors that want to see it
at a certain scale and for this this is
exactly where I would where I would use
where I would use this money. Yes. And
and in a couple of ideas that
we have to screen including also
hydrogen technologies of course which is
my topic. Yes. but then to
allow this for scaling. Yeah. And to
overcome this value of the
>> So which project will be that you
finance first?
>> My own one. My current one. My current
one that's my my electrochemical
hydrogen separator and compressor.
That's a new technology that allows
hydrogen compress compression without
any moving parts. in includes a
separation
>> not in moving parts.
>> Yes, there's no piston no
rotating something.
>> So how you increase the pressure?
>> We increase the pressure by just
transforming by by moving the
hydrogen from one side to the other side
of a membrane. So we come back to what
what I talked about at the very
beginning. I like membranes and they
have a great potential
>> also 100 million for professor please.
Yeah,
one one question just on membranes. We
were reading somewhere that
>> the MOF based separation it uses a
material which is a critical m
mineral and comes from Chinese rare
earth and how can is it because
critical mineral is such a political
topic is it still being used what are
your views on it? MO space separation.
Yes, I know what you I know what
you mean. just also for the audience,
MOFS are so-called what we call metal
organic frameworks. and this is a
a group of materials that have like a
kind of almost crystalline character
>> with certain polarities and which allow
actually the movement of small
molecules into such into such
materials. So that means
>> u bringing this to a membrane process or
bringing this to a separation process if
we use this material it will allow a
certain molecule to move into that
framework and pass through very quickly.
So that can be used in separations of
CO2 it can be used in hydrogen
applications storage applications also
separation applications. you're right
we have to be careful which
materials to use and whether we use
we have another let's say demand
for critical materials critical raw
materials but there are of course
strong ambitions also in
research and we also did it just
with a recent application where we
try either to abandon critical
minerals and or substitute it in a good
way. So that means this is this is
something that that that we see and we
where we as researchers have a certain
responsibility
at an early stage when we develop a
technology we have to have a view of
which materials do we need for that and
whether is there is a chance to
substitute them for less rare
materials, cheaper materials with less
environmental impact. and so as such
this has to be always in the back of
our minds even if the idea is great but
if it creates another problem we have to
be aware of okay shall we really follow
this idea
>> you currently in terms of their supply
chain of critical minerals are they
excessively reliant to from other
countries
>> I'm not an expert in that field what but
what I see is and what I what I of
course heavily observe is the is the is
the is the is the discussion is also the
the political impact in
in getting national international
contracts to have a supply chain
or safe supplies.
>> What I see is for us as chemical
engineers and that's the exciting thing
again is to loop its use. So that
means we have already quite a lot of
critical materials here in any
country on stock
>> because we have used it for a time and
the end of its when it comes to the end
of life to the end of its use we have to
develop improved
>> and reliable recycling technology to
recover the materials again. So also
here if we talk about photoics
recycling, if we talk about lithium
battery recycling, if we talk about
the recycling of magnets which
contain earth etc. So I believe that
the further development and also
investing maybe one of those millions
could be also invested in this regard is
to close the loop and develop a
sustainable supply chain of such
minerals by just using what we already
have and what can be partly recycled.
It's already well established in the
island seal industry. 98% of the
materials go back in the loop. But for
lots of other stuff, it's not yet
established because of costs and because
of a lack of reliable technologies
>> about resources to research.
Would you find one reform in European
grants to research that could be
improved?
>> That we could have a discussion of an
hour just on this topic. but in short
in short I think we lose a lot of
resources in academia resources in
academic resources by submitting
project applications for grants with a
success chance that is in the range of
2%. And if you look into into some
ERC related grants into European grants
that are disruptive that are high level
we have a high competition and the
competition is for 2% chance. So that
means 49 proposals fail and one proposal
is successful. And so you mean this
means that 49 groups actually took a lot
of effort, energy, costs, manpower,
human power to actually to actually
submit this proposal. and so here we
have to come to a either a pre-election
process or actually just more money
into that and so this this loss of
resources in
unsuccessful grant applications is
something that has to be has to be
addressed in the future
>> and how could it be
>> as I said pre-election
overcoming frustration by all those
that that write the proposal and can get
a reject. Yes.
>> and also combine it with a
better distribution of money that is
available or increasing it. So that's
the only way
>> it could be another way of just helping
them to spin off and then private money
coming into it.
>> Public private partnerships are great.
Yes. But you cannot apply this to any
technology readiness level. So this is
usually something that that requires
also
a business case for the investor at
some point and that's only possible at
higher TRLs. but at lower TRS at
lower TS and we have lots of lots of
fundamental researchers or
researchers that that do fundamental
research and in that
field in that field we definitely
lack budgets in Europe in Austrians
in particular also I see this and
and this this this needs some
guidance and some in some some
action actually actually to not
waste time and money of unsuccessful
applications.
>> so well time flies
>> advice
>> and we would like to know some advice
from you to the new chemical
professionals that are entering in
energy field which advice would you give
them? Yeah, I'm chemical engineer and as
chemical engineer, learn chemical
engineering first.
That's always a good advice.
chemical engineering is very much
about balancing, material balancing,
energy balancing
and a proper knowledge of
thermodynamics.
And in particular when we when we look
at new ideas, crazy ideas, we do
have to challenge it also against this
these governing
rules that we have. Yeah. which we
cannot physics is physics. So there's
noise of physics is also an important
aspect. So having a good foundation
here is important also to be be
professional. Chemical engineers are
interdicciplinary by by definition u
because we are at the at the at the
border of chemistry, mechanical
engineering,
electrical engineering, physics,
biosciences etc depending on which
field. and as such learning
the different languages to have a better
understanding is important too and
those that become professional and
target management also more more
entrepreneurship etc. So that means also
this is an important aspect learning
learning about this how to be successful
in this in this very very
competitive field is also a good thing.
Yes. So how could I become a good
entrepreneur and chem more chemical
engineers as entrepreneurs would be good
too. Yeah.
>> So professor your last thoughts about
the interview and our mission
to bridge the academy together with the
with industry and policy makers.
as I as I as I have discussed before it
is very important to have that and
so this requires readiness on both sides
to do that. So the willingness actually
to understand the problems of the
industry and industrial sector
>> for us is more on the academic sector
and vice versa.
>> This is very this is this is this is a
prerequisite. Yeah. And then also we
need channels and ways and means on how
to how to foster it at an early stage to
get and gain understanding by the
industries by the investors for instance
of new technologies that arise. So, so
get getting excited about about research
and also have a very positive image or
improve the image
of universities of academia of R&D in
the society and that's super important.
And here we see also with alternative
news call it fake news or whatever
we see we see that that there are
alternative truths told that have no
scientific foundations and to act
against this I think is one of our
responsibilities both on the
professional and the academic sector.
>> Okay, good. I think it's a good words to
to close this amazing interview. Thank
you very much, professor. Very
insightful and I hope that is
insightful for the community too.
>> Learn chemistry.
>> Learn
>> learn chemistry.
>> Yeah. Thank you for watching the
interview until the end and see you in
the next episode.
>> Thank you. See you. Bye. Bye.
>> Bye.

From Lab to Industry : Bottlenecks of Decarbonizing Heavy Industry in CEE | Prof. Harasek | S2E5

Hydrogen as 'Champagne' Fuel

Academic Impact Beyond Publications

Carbon Capture: Energy-Intensive Transition

Bridging the 'Valley of Death'

Inefficiency in Grant Applications