S1E20

184°C: How High-Temperature Heat Pumps Are Transforming Industrial Decarbonization | S1E20

with Veronica Bill· AIT· 67m

TL;DR

High-temperature heat pumps, exemplified by AIT's 184°C project, are key to industrial decarbonization by upgrading waste heat.

Synopsis

Veronica Bill from AIT discusses the critical role of high-temperature heat pumps in industrial decarbonization, highlighting the "AHEAD" project which aims to supply 184°C steam to a pharmaceutical plant. This initiative demonstrates the viability of converting low-grade waste heat into high-grade process heat, significantly reducing CO2 emissions and improving overall energy efficiency. The episode also covers the evolution of heat pump technology, from residential to advanced industrial applications, emphasizing the importance of optimizing temperature lift for maximum efficiency. Challenges such as retrofitting, space requirements, and grid integration are addressed, alongside the crucial impact of supportive policy frameworks and funding mechanisms, like Austria's "Transformation of Industry" program, in accelerating industrial adoption.

Key metrics

by the numbers · 7

160°C
Efficiency project hot water
184°C
AHEAD project steam temperature
280°C
MVR system max temperature
1,600 tons CO2/year
AHEAD project CO2 savings
7 months/year
AHEAD CO2-free steam supply
15-20 years
Heat pump equipment lifespan
2030
Austrian funding program end

Topics

8 tags

Industrial Heat PumpsProcess Heat DecarbonizationWaste Heat RecoverySteam GenerationEnergy EfficiencyPolicy IncentivesDigitalizationRefrigerants

Stats

Duration: 1h 07m
Words: 10.7k
Questions: 36

Timeline

12 chapters

Guest's Background and Career
Veronica Bill discusses her chemical engineering studies, PhD in gasification technology, and joining AIT in 2014 to decarbonize industrial processes.
Efficiency Project Milestone
The European 'Efficiency' project (Horizon 2020) demonstrated producing 160°C hot water with a heat pump, operating for 4, 000 hours at industrial sites.
AHEAD Project Introduction
The 'AHEAD' (Austrian Heat Pump Demonstrator) project, started in 2022, aims to supply 184°C steam to a pharmaceutical company (Takeda) using a steam-generating heat pump and mechanical vapor recompression.
High-Temperature Heat Pump Technology
Explanation of combining a steam-generating heat pump with mechanical vapor recompression (MVR) to reach temperatures up to 280°C, and the importance of optimizing temperature lift for efficiency.
Evolution of Heat Pump Applications
Discussion on heat pumps' long history in industrial cooling (refrigeration) and their increasing use for heating, with examples from the IEA's NX48 and NX58 projects on industrial and high-temperature heat pumps.
AHEAD Project Commissioning and Impact
The AHEAD project is in its commissioning phase, with 4, 000 hours of operation monitoring planned. It is expected to save 1, 600 tons of CO2 per year by supplying CO2-free steam for about 7 months annually.
Economic Comparison of Heating Technologies
Analysis of heat pump economics, comparing them to natural gas, electric boilers, and hydrogen. Heat pumps offer superior energy efficiency due to waste heat recovery, making them the best option for steam production.
Role of Digital Tools in Reliability
Digital tools, including data analytics and detailed models (approaching digital twins), enhance heat pump reliability through operation optimization, predictive maintenance, and faster commissioning, especially for industrial applications.
Retrofitting Challenges and Suitable Industries
Key retrofitting challenges include process data availability, space requirements, integration with existing infrastructure, and electricity grid connection. Food, paper, chemical, and drying industries are identified as having high potential for heat pump adoption.
Policy Advocacy and EHPA Role
Veronica Bill's role as co-chair of the industrial and commercial heat pump group within the European Heat Pump Association (EHPA), advocating for policies that reward CO2 reduction and energy efficiency.
Austrian Funding Program for Decarbonization
Discussion of Austria's 'Transformation of Industry' funding program, which supports R&D, pilot projects, and even operational costs for companies replacing fossil fuels with renewables, available until 2030.
Heat Pump Operation and Refrigerants
A simplified explanation of how a heat pump works, focusing on the thermodynamic cycle. Discussion on refrigerants, emphasizing that modern systems are designed to be tight, use ozone-safe substances, and have controlled end-of-life disposal.

Key insights

5 takeaways

01
Optimize process temperature, not just replace.
Industrial heat pump efficiency (COP) is highly dependent on the temperature lift. Re-evaluating and precisely matching the actual process temperature needs, rather than a direct 1:1 replacement of existing gas boilers, significantly improves system performance.
02
Heat pumps beat other electric heating.
For industrial steam production, heat pumps are more energy-efficient than direct electric boilers or hydrogen combustion. By recovering waste heat, heat pumps can achieve COPs of 2 to 2.5, whereas other electric options operate at or below 100% efficiency.
03
Digital tools boost heat pump reliability.
Advanced data analytics, operation optimization, and predictive maintenance, facilitated by digital tools and models (including digital twins), are crucial for establishing long-term trust and reliability in complex industrial heat pump deployments.
04
Policy frameworks drive industrial adoption.
A stable, long-term policy framework, including effective CO2 pricing and operational cost funding (such as Austria's "Transformation of Industry" program), is essential for industrial companies to commit to large-scale decarbonization investments.
05
Refrigerant leakage is a system failure.
Industrial heat pumps are designed to be hermetically sealed; any leakage is considered a malfunction, not normal operation. Modern refrigerants have zero ozone depletion potential and low global warming potential, with controlled end-of-life disposal procedures.

Pull quotes

5 quotes

So at that time when we started that project, this sounds like a crazy idea
Veronica Bill
Because the efficiency of a heat pump depends on the temperature lift depends on the temperature difference that you need to overcome between the heat source and the heat sink.
Veronica Bill
It's important to show that technology is reliable. So it's not only about the first time operating it but showing that it's like trustworthy and reliable technology.
Veronica Bill
And if we compare these technologies and look at how much energy that is needed to supply a certain amount of steam, the heat pump is the best option
Veronica Bill
So it's maybe not one specific policy, but it's more about a reliable framework or a pathway towards climate neutrality that we all that we all are here to.
Veronica Bill

Transcript1683 cuesClick a timestamp to jump

Welcome to a new energy bridge
interview. today we have Veronica
Bill from AIT. You were our teacher
professor in the lectures of the master
in renewables. And it was so great I
have to say this class because we could
see a heat bomb there like touch it and
change circuits and it was amazing
experience. So very happy to have you
here.
>> Welcome.
>> Thank you for the invitation and
great to hear that you enjoyed the
lecture.
>> Yeah. Was it your first time making this
lecture?
>> This specific lecture? Yes. we have a
regular lecture at the master for
master studies at the tio on
refrigeration and heat pumps.
>>.
>> Great. But the version for your course
was even more interactive.
>> Yeah. No, it was on site. Amazing. So
today we're going to dive into heat
pumps in high temperature. So you are
with a project ongoing that we are going
to explore. But yeah, let's go for it.
>> Yeah. First of all, thank you Arona. And
before we get into all of the big
stuff, the industrial stuff, we want to
know about you. Please tell us about
yourself and your journey. How did you
start your education journey and how
did you end up working at AIT working
for industrial heat pumps?
>> Yeah. So I studied chemical engineering
at toine and what I particularly
liked about my studies was that it's
about energy environmental protection
and industrial processes and my
master thesis was a comparison of waste
incineration and waste gasification. So
two very specific technologies on that
have a component of energy efficiency
and resource efficiency. and I really
enjoyed the scientific work and so I
continued with a PhD in quite the
same field on gasification
technology. So how to turn waste into
gases that can be used for synthesis
for energy production
>> and also as a sort of a recycling a
chemical recycling approach
and after that I completed my
thesis in 2013. I was then a
posttock for a year and I had the chance
to work on one of the books
that is quite well known in our field.
It's in a ghee opio so energy from
biomass that was a very interesting work
and then there was a job at from
AIT looking for a scientist to
decarbonize industrial processes and
that caught my attention when I filed
the application and this is how I ended
up there. started
>> probably 10 years ago in 2014.
>> Yeah. So almost 11 years now
>> and it was no at that time like
decarbonizing industrial process, right?
>> It was it was already a topic but
it was at the beginning. So there was an
interest in energy efficiency. there
was also so we were already discussing
how to reach the climate goals that
the European Union set. but it was
not there was not so much drive it
was more an idea so that we can we can
do that and yeah at the I started
somehow on a new topic but it was also
somehow related to what I've done
before. So it was on industrial heat
pumps completely new technology
>> but it was about the use of these heat
pumps in industry which is very well
connected to chemical engineering and
and optimization of processes
>> and yeah this was a very very
interesting journey. So I had the chance
to take responsibility for
research projects for small and national
projects first and then also
international projects and we were
>> working on technology development so
on how to use high temperature heat
pumps in the industry and also to
demonstrate this technology. And an
important milestone was the
efficiency project. This was a
European project funded in Horizon
2020 where we first demonstrated that
it's possible to produce hot water
with 160°
>> in an industrial process with a heat
pump.
>> 160. Okay.
>> Yeah. So at that time when we started
that project, this sounds like a crazy
idea
>> and we had a very very ambitious team
with dedicated company partners
working on compressors, working on
refrigerants. also our industrial end
users Vinberg and Dana they were
really
interested and open to
accommodate this new technology at their
production sites and it was a very
very well suited industrial test bed.
So we operated both heat pumps for 4, 000
hours at their sites collecting well
real world operation data. yeah,
which was an important way to show
that that's a viable technology and
and to and it's a useful technology to
convert waste heat into high temperature
heat.
>> And that was one of its own kind of
project, one of the first ones.
>> Yeah, this was completed in 2021.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah.
>> And how long the main
project that we saw you working
at for at Takita.
>>. the industrial heat pump for
pharmaceutical company and when did it
start and how was the project working
on it?
>> so we started in 2022 and this is
the we called the project ahead
>>
>> Austrian heat pump demonstrator and in
this project we demonstrate a steam
generating heat pump that is integrated
into the production side of tea. So the
is a pharmaceutical company. They have
several production sites in Vienna and
for their processes they basically need
cooling and steam and steam at 11 bar
and 184° C. So this is why that's the
aim for the project to supply steam in
the conditions that they need and we
do this together with a German heat pump
manufacturer SPH sustainable process
heat. So, it's a small team consisting
of three companies, EAT, TA, and SPH.
And
>> which one is the third one?
>> SPH. Okay.
>> The heat pump manufacturer.
>>. And back in the time you were
researching about reaching 160 and it
was crazy at that time.
>> Do you feel the same now with to with
the goal to reach 184?
>> It's it's still ambitious. but I
would say that the field of high
temperature heat pumps is more
established now. So it's a really
dynamic field. There are many other
actors all around Europe also working
towards similar goals. We see also more
and more manufacturers coming up with
new exciting products. And
>> what is the range now? 220 the maximum
that people are
>> well the maximum that you can order
is 280 degrees
>> I will go
>> 280
>> it's already established in process it's
280
>> not yet with a with a heat pump so I
will go into more detail on that
>> so basically what we are doing at
at Takita is a combination of a
steam generating heat pump that turns
liquid waste heat into steam
>>. And then we add a mechanical
vapor recompression system. This is a
steam compressor that increases
temperature and pressure. And the
technology of steam compression is
already well established for many
decades. And you find those those
devices for example in distillation
columns with internal heat recovery
>> and this technology is able to reach up
to 270 280° C.
>> So this is from this combination
perspective that's the upper limit.
the combination of coupling a steam
generating heat pump with an MVR system
is really new and this is what we are
demonstrating here. So we are not aiming
for higher temperatures because tea
needs those 11 bars. So this is why we
we are doing this but with a
similar setup adding more steam
compression pressure can be
increased. so when we think of it
from a process perspective it's not so
important to reach the highest
temperatures. it's more important to
supply the temperature that's
actually needed. And what we see a lot
in at industrial sites is that so
it's very common to have a gas boiler
that supplies steam could be 10 bar
could be 15 bar because when you when
you use natural gas in a combustion
process it really has no influence on
the efficiency. If you go to 10 bar or
15 bar there's no difference. for a
heat pump this is really important
because the efficiency of a heat pump
depends on the temperature lift
depends on the temperature difference
that you need to overcome between the
heat source and the heat sink.
>> So the higher the temperature the less
efficient is the heat pump. This is
based on the heat pump principle.
>>.
>> So it really makes a lot of sense
when people think of integrating a heat
pump to re-evaluate the temperatures
that are needed in the process. So if
it's not, so it could be a one-on-one
replacement, taking out the gas boiler
and supplying the steam with the heat
pump.
>> but very often steam is
supplied centrally and the pressure is
reduced before it's fed into the
specific processes. And with a heat
pump, we can do this not top down as
it is done now, but bottom up, supplying
the temperature level that's needed
for a certain process and then increase
the temperature level for another
process if they need a higher level
there.
>> And with this approach steam supply
gets more efficient when it's based on
heat pumps. So it's not so about the
maximum temperatures that can be
reached, but it's more about the
yeah, the efficient use and to supply
what's actually needed.
Okay. Wow. we talked here with
Royer which is the president for
solar heat association
>> and he was very excited about the
idea of combining
like long-term storage with for hot
water and then to supply it with heat
pump at the end. So heat pump are would
you say that they're more efficient
supplying the different temperature when
it's already heated or from the scratch
and then to hit the maximum?
>> or this well basically they're more
efficient if the temperature lift is
smaller. So if you have a warm heat
source heat pump operation becomes
more efficient. So for these for
these concepts on long-term heat
storage, we usually see there's usually
heat storage at like a moderate
temperature and then using a heat
pump to increase the temperature to the
the temperature that's then needed for
for space heating or for hot water
preparation.
>> so this makes a lot of sense to
exploit heat sources that are warmer.
>> when we look at industrial processes,
there might be a way to use a warm heat
source in a direct heat exchanger
before.
>> Okay.
>> And then use the remaining heat that
cannot be used in heat exchanger anymore
in a heat pump as a heat source.
>> so the temperature differences
>> will then increase but the amount of
heat that you need to supply will get
lower
>> lower. Okay. So yeah, just to put in
context because you are in high
temperature heat pumps. So this is over
what is the definition over
>> over 100 degrees
>> over 100 and what is the other
definition because like the smaller heat
pumps just to putting in context.
>> Okay. So high temperature heat pumps
are able to supply heat above 100°.
This is one one standing definition. And
when it comes to the different types of
application, so we have heat pumps in
residential buildings and single family
homes. these heat pumps usually
use ambient heat sources such as
ambient air, groundwater or or even the
soil. And depending on the heating
system, they supply if it's an underflow
heating system 35° if it's a radiator
temperature bit higher.
>> That's like
>> 60 60
>> basic heat pump. This is this is a
very wellestablished technology and
it's also the standard technology that
is used in Austria for new build single
family houses. Usually they have an air
source heat pump and
>> what is the temperature for that like
the for the residential heat pump that
they
>> so in the range of 35 to
>> 60 70 80 depending on the heating
system. It's not so much a limit of it's
not about the ability of the heat pump
supplying this high temperature but
again a question of optimization depends
on the size of the radiator and
also the building standard where the
heat pump is used.
>> What's the what's the benefit of using
heat pump?
>> So heat pumps are used in industry for a
long time already but usually not for
heating purposes but for cooling. So
refrigeration technology that's the same
technology but exploiting the other part
of the process. So for heating
applications we use waste heat and
upgrade it with the heat pump to supply
the high temperature and for
refrigeration it's the same process but
we want to
>> provide cooling and the heat that is
generated is wined or use it or used in
another process. So refrigeration
technology has has played a very
important role when it comes to
conservation of food transporting
food also yeah for medication and
and this part. So it's it's actually
it's a it's a very old technology and
the first big installations were
building breweries.
>> Okay.
>> To Yeah. Yeah. So beer that.
>> Yeah.
>> All the best inventions start.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. And yeah. So from from
refrigeration we come to applications
where we use the cold and the hot side.
So refrigeration with heat recovery and
yeah heat pumps that can supply 80 or
95 degrees. They're quite they're well
established for a long time now. and
and they're also and they're also
integrated in the industry. So we find
there is a there was an international
project for the international energy
agency there's a heat pump tech
technology collaboration program
>> where researchers from from all
over the world collaborate on
different topics in the world of
heat pumps and there is now a series of
projects dealing with industrial heat
pumps. So those projects are numbered.
the first one was called NX 48
which was an industrial heat pumps and
for this project we collected a series
of examples of already built heat
pumps. so we found at that time
projects in the food industry also
providing district heating. So taking
industrial waste heat providing district
heating and also well in other
industrial sectors in that typical
temperature range up to 80° followup
project was then focusing on high
temperature heat pumps
>> and there are also some examples of heat
pumps supplying those higher
temperatures. And this this database
of product information project
information and also demonstration
examples is available online. It's
also maintained. It will be continuously
maintained. It's a very interesting
source of information. So if if your
podcast has show notes, we can maybe
include the link to that database.
>> Yeah, sure. Yeah, sure.
>> Yeah. What is the name of the
>> project is called NX58
and it provides an overview on the
high temperature heat pumps that are
currently available on the market and
also demonstration projects and it's
there's now another project.
>> Yeah, we want to ask you about that
question as well going forward but
thank you for mentioning that.
talking about the ahead project, it will
it will achieve 184 degrees of steam
generation
>> which it benchmark now a global
benchmark
>> but it's still it's still one of the
most ambitious projects in the heat
pump world and it's a what is also
special about it is it's a first time
a first of its kind application and
we also aim for long-term experience
here so it will be part of Tito's
production site.
it's important for them.
>> It's an important measure for them also
to reach their decarbonization goals.
>> So the ahead project is just the
start but there is also the
operation experience is a very important
part of it.
>> Not then it's another project by itself
right that operate in real world
>> real data. So we are now I would say
in the middle or a little bit above the
middle of the project in the very
exciting phase of commissioning. So the
design is completed, the construction is
completed and now we can really start
working operating the heat pump
>> and what is also included in the head
project is 4, 000 hours of operation
and optimization. So what we will do is
together with our partner partners we
will have a look on the operation data
compare it with the models think on
how to optimize because it's it's
quite a complex project. So maybe to go
in a little bit in detail on the
setup. So tequila has a central chiller
system. So it's a central source of cold
where they produce cold water for the
production at six degrees. It's a heat
pump operating as a chiller and the
the waste heat from this chiller is used
in a heat pump that provides heating for
space for space heating and
warm water
>> and this application is only is
predominantly needed in winter. So there
is potential for the other months where
we don't need so much heating energy and
this is where the head system comes in.
>> So we take the heat from the heat
pump around 70° use it as a heat source
for the steam generating heat pump.
>>.
>> the heat pump will produce low
pressure steam and this is then boosted
with the mechanical vapor compression
system to 11 bar and it's then fed into
the steam system the existing steam
system. And when the head system is
operating the gas boilers u are out
of work then. With this setup the
head system can supply the production
site with CO2 free steam for about 7
months a year. So this is quite quite a
big potential to be exploited here
>> and so we will follow in the project
this first year of operation.
>>.
And how is the
how did they supply gas before?
>> They have they use natural gas
and gas boilers and
>> so this is also why tackling steam
production has has an important impact
on the emissions.
>> Wow. Have you for sure you have
measured the CO2 emission avoid.
>> Yeah. So, we expect that we can save
1, 600 tons of CO2 per year with this
measure.
>> Well, we were speaking about the carbon
market in the last episode., yeah.
Wow. It's a lot. It's great. And that
and that is only in that indust.
>> Yes. Yes. And that's the interesting
part of that concept. we can use
systems like the head system in all
those industrial processes that need
steam and it's even better if they also
need cooling.
>> So the it's it's basically a cascaded
system and at the it starts at 6° it
ends at 11 bar and depending on the on
the requirements of the process you can
have the head system a head system with
a heat pump a head system with a heat
pump and a chiller.
>> Mh. so it's it's like a modular
approach to really supply the
temperatures that are needed for the
specific processes.
>> So when you for start processes
you've al also done the pilot u the TRL
how how is it calculated? So you would
say it already eight or nine it's
established, right?
>> That's a that's a good question. I would
say it's eight. it's or seven to
eight. So it's the it's a demonstration
or operation in a real industrial
environment.
>>.
>> So well basically the T the TL
describes the readiness level
>> and after this first demonstration there
comes the very interesting part. So
>> also to establish the
product and also
from a research perspective the first
demonstration is really exciting but
from an industrial perspective the
it's important to show that technology
is reliable. So it's not only about the
first time operating it but showing that
it's like trustworthy and reliable
technology. So in one of their reports,
IIA extended the TL scale to up to 11
including also this trust part
to account for not only the so it's
like the product is available but
also the product is used and the product
is used in many applications. So
from an industrial perspective this is I
think very important.
>> Yeah. Especially for investment when you
see less risk you are more willing to
>> risk. Yeah.
>> Risk is
>> well research research and
demonstration projects are all about
minimizing risk and also sharing
expertise to lower the risk for all
all parties involved..
>> So that's a very it's that's a very
important part of it to do this
together to share expertise and
>>.
>> to make it less riskier for everyone and
>> and when is the day zero when you are
going to start operating?
>> It's already it's already operating.
>> Okay. But it takes the
commissioning phase consists of
different different tests and
adjustments and
>> yeah so looking back looking back at
some point in the future we can say so
now this is normal operation.
>> Okay.
>> yeah so
>> wow great and you're going to operate
for thousand hours.
>> we will monitor 4, 000 hours within
the project.
>>. and TA will keep on operating
the heat pump as part of the production
system.
>> So that for them it's then a normal
production unit and we will use the
4, 000 hours in the project to really
adjust all these different heat
pumps to interact well with each
other.
>>. And what is the lifetime the
lifespan of the project or or a heat
pump? How much
>> for the well the project the project
will end next year. Okay.,
>> not about the equipment.
>> The equipment 15 20 years.
>> -.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. And the payback of the investment.
>> That's a difficult question. This is
for Ta.
>> but to put it maybe in a more
general perspective for a heat pump
well in this setting we're replacing
natural gas with an electric
electricitydriven technology. So from
a today's perspective comparing natural
gas prices with electricity prices
you have
>> couple of years
>> it's it's sometimes really tough
because electricity is more expensive
than natural gas.
>>. And although the heat pump consumes
less electricity that you would need
when you use natural gas,
>> this ratio is yeah sometimes
challenging and it also depends on
yeah on the price level of
these two energy carriers. But if we
look into the future and long-term
operation, this situation is very likely
to change. So basically when we discuss
renewable heating supply it's about
comparing different renewable options
with each other.
>>.
>> because this is basically the
solution space that you can pick from
>> because the natural the use of
natural gas in industry will be
phased out. and in this temperature
range when it comes to steam production
we have several options. So could be the
heat pump.
>> but it could also be an electric
boiler. we could use probably bio gas
if it's available. We can also use
hydrogen. And if we compare these
technologies and look at how much
energy that is needed to supply a
certain amount of steam, the heat pump
is the best option
>> because a heat pump because with the
heat pump we recover also the waste
heat. Yeah.
>> So that's that's part of the of the
energy that is then supplied at a higher
temperature. So, if the heat pump has a
CUP of two or 2.5
>> we get two or 2.5 times more
energy out of it than the amount of
electricity that we put in.
>> And if we do it with an electric heater,
>> if it's like the perfect electric heater
with no losses at all,
>> we get 100% of heat out of 100% of
electricity.
>>. And if you do it with hydrogen
we first have to produce the hydrogen in
an electrolyis process. So we have to
conversion part of electricity to
hydrogen. Hydrogen is combusting.
>> Yeah. So it's definitely below one or
below 100% then.
>> Yeah.
>> And for this temperature region for
steam production this is why the heat
pump is a very very interesting option.
>> Yeah. Sure. Yeah. I was asking also
because of the geopolitical situation
right now and
>> like leaving the gas aside these
solutions are very interesting for the
industry I think.
>> Yeah it another another benefit in
addition to saving CO2 is that the
heat pump makes the process that's
already available more efficient. So
it's it's also it's also an important
measure when it comes to improving
industrial sites that are already
established and this is a
>> this also helps local production.
>> You mention
>> last question.
>> Yeah, go for it.
>> Yes. that I read something about this
project with TA that some prize that
was involved what is about like
netzero industry award.
>> Oh yeah. Yeah. So net zero industry
award for mission innovation is so
they are looking for outstanding
projects all over the world in the
field of decarbonization and we
submitted the project and we were very
very happy to be rewarded as outstanding
project in Austria in 2023.
>> Wow interesting. now you mentioned
annex 56. So it's a it's a
>> it's a different project. I was speaking
about different project in this
technology collaboration program there's
a number of project and they are all so
they all u they have those strange names
with the numbers so what I mentioned
before was 58 that's on high temperature
heat pumps
>> the 156 that's on IoT and
digitization for heat pumps yes
>> u because the these are the
digital tools and so we wanted to
touch upon the reliability of high
temperature heat
So like how about the reliability
because in industrial processes
reliability is a is an important issue.
>> Yeah.
>> And do digital tools enhance it or how
do you measure the reliability or tackle
that issue?
>>. So it's a it's a multiffold answer
to that. So first of all it's about
so when establishing new technologies
it's really important just to have
the numbers to be able to show okay if
you use a heat pump in this or that
context you will have a CP coefficient
of performance of a certain value and
it's important to show that
technology can withstand the
conditions so that everything is
working fine after 1, 000 hours 4, 000
hours
>> 10, 000 15, 000. So we need a large
number of these operating hours and
and also so this is the
reliability of the technology aspect and
digital tools can can help in
many ways. So they're also
yeah using using the benefits of
computing power and digitization
is part of research and
development in many different fields.
So but I think it's especially useful
when it comes to data analysis. So
working with
>> if we have at a certain time lots of
operation data then there are also we
can also use advanced tools for data
analytics to learn from from the
operation behavior. the project that
you mentioned on IoT and
digitalization for heat pumps.
>> In this one, we looked into well the
opportunities and challenges for heat
pumps using digital services or
making use of connectivity from a very
general perspective. So not only for
industrial applications but also for
residential applications and there we
have far bigger numbers. there's far
more operation data available. There are
far more installations and in this
project we have collected a large
number of application examples of
connectivity IoT applications digital
services and we have grouped them into
five groups from a general
perspective. So it could be one of
these services is optimiz operation
optimization. So to use data in all
sorts of way to learn about the
operation to find to find failures
predictive maintenance is an important
part and I think that's also very
interesting for industry when we use
insights in the operation behavior to
to predict failures in the future or to
to specifically plan maintenance
measures so they so they don't interrupt
industrial production but they can be
done in a on a planned interval
preventing shutdowns. I think that
one is very interesting. Another one is
commissioning also to
speed up this process. I think that's
especially well that's relevant for all
sorts of heat pumps flexibility
provision is another one or grid
services because heat pumps well
consume electricity provide heat so
they're also
>> flexibility
>> yeah maybe
>> depends a bit on the application. so
heat pumps can be used to provide
flexibility but it's also a question of
of the specific use case if it makes
sense or not.
>> So there are very interesting examples
especially in the residential in
the residential fields where large
groups where large number of heat pumps
are pulled to market small
flexibility together.
for an industrial company usually
heat pumps are used in some sort of a
base load scenario so that they're
operated all the time and because then
you get you get the better
payback.
so for an industrial company usually
when it comes to make use of
price peaks that occur
yeah on irregular intervals for
short time. It makes more sense to have
an electric boiler that can cover these
peaks because the heat pump is
more useful for the base load
operation.
>> But it's also possible to operate the
heat pump flexibly if if that's needed
for that application. So this has to be
sorted out in the design phase. What's
the purpose of this application and how
you really want to use it?
>> Yeah. I now that you mentioned the
digitalization part of the this process.
>> are you using digital twins also to
make some test before or designing?
>> Yes. so also in the in the head
project we are we are working on
on a model of the heat pump. So it's not
yet the real digital twin because a
digital twin interacts with so the model
interacts with the physical world and
well exchange data and influences the
operation. What we have here is a
very detailed heat pump model that
that we will use to for the
operation optimization. also to
compare what we expect to what we
measure and also I think the differences
are really interesting to learn from
those differences and find reasons why
reality yeah there is a deviation
between reality and simulation and
to use we will also use the model to
to work on the operation
conditions for this long long chain of
heat pumps because it's easier of course
to try that with the model
>> and then put it out in reality. But for
this for our application, it's not
necessary to do this in a in a closed
loop where the digital twin is
interacting with the heat pump.
>> Okay. Not yet. But
>> not yet. But
>> the ideas of predictive
maintenance or using this model
further in the future to detect
deviations
>> to find signs of u malfunctionings.
that's certainly an interesting option.
>> Okay. So digital twins is when you
interact from the digital world to the
real world. That's the I didn't know
that it was part of the definition.
>> This is one one part of the definition.
So there are several definitions out
there but there is a very u very nice
illustration that shows this
interaction because well if you a
model is just a representation of
what what we see in the physical
world. So it's it's a mathematical
representation of the heat pump. It's
it contains simplifications of
course. So we focus on mass and energy
in our model.
>> yeah and sometimes it's also not
necessary to include all the components
or all the substances. And but the
digital twin is really is really
interacting with the physical
>> part of it. and
in
and there and it can it can do this
like on its own following a certain
logic but it could also be an advisor
system. So having the model taking in
all the data
creating measures and having then an
operator deciding okay I want to take
this measure. So this is also
>> this is not a self-operating digital
twin but it's also it's a it's also a
way to get well human interaction in
there. Okay, getting back to heat pump.
What are the usual retrofitting
challenge when when you have to put
heat pump into different usually
for heating purposes as well in I did
my thesis and comparing Austria, Poland
and Romania
>> and even for low temperature based
industrial application they use coal
>> so where heat pump can be used but
what could be the usual retrofitting
challenges there? well first of all
it's important to have process data
to actually know what is needed in the
process how the process is operated
>> knowing about operation times down times
requirements hard limits which cannot be
which cannot be crossed
>> and then to as I as I said before
when we think of integrating heat
pumps it's also important to look for
heat recovery potentials that
>> maybe do not require a heat pump that
can be used in a heat exchanger. So,
it's good to start with an overview on
all the on all the process streams
that need to be heated and all those
processes that need to be cooled.
so, this is it's also called the pinch
analysis. A very useful tool to get an
overview on what's going on in a
plant from like a thermodynamic point of
view.
>>. And with this overview we
can then determine how much energy can
be recovered internally with heat
exchangers. And then there are in yeah
there are two two remaining parts. So
one on the cold side which has to be
cooled and the and the remaining
amount of energy that has to be heated
and then we can think of the heating
heat pump integration.
another well other challenges in
retrofitting come from the existing
installation. So space requirements is
an important this is an important
issue. So large scale heat pumps are
really big. it's like building
another power plant. and so it's a
question of space. it's also with a
heat pump we connect the heat source and
the heat sink. And this is an
interaction that was not there before.
So we have to make sure that the heat
source and the heat sink are either
available at the same time. If they're
not available at the same time, we have
to think about thermal storage either
at the source or at the sink. And this
will then also require space and
integration work. And another another
challenge can be the connection to the
electricity grid depending on how much
free capacity is available at the site
if they can accommodate for another
electricity consumer. Adding to that
like do you see any particular
industry where
there could be maximum impact and easier
adoption for heat pump?
>> So the food industry is well suited
for the application of heat pumps
>> because also the range of
temperatures that they need really fits
in with the operating
capacity of high temperature heat
pumps.
there's a lot of potential also in the
paper industry. Yeah.
>> And the chemical industry., and maybe
from a different perspective, not
focusing on industrial sectors, but on
on specific processes and unit
operations, there's a huge potential to
integrate heat pumps and drying
processes. So dry, we find drying
processes in all sorts of industries.
so in all in all process steps where we
have to remove water from a product and
this could be food of course but this
also happens in metal cement
ceramics.
>> Yeah it was interesting for me to also
look when I was looking into data the
energy intensity for trying processes
way higher than the other processes
>> paper and pulp industry but are they
adopting in paper and pulp well?
>> Yes. So there's there is there's a
big interest in heat pumps and
there also there also now projects
coming up where heat pumps are
integrated in paper facilities
and yeah so drying is especially
useful to combine it with a heat pump
because there we can also valorize
both the heating and the cooling and
also create some benefits for the drying
process itself because you can supply
the dryer with dehumidified air which
makes it also more efficient.
>> Interesting. You mentioned about
putting heating pump in industries
because it's space. It takes a lot of
space sometimes and it could be a
challenge. But what typically goes into
manufacturing of heat pump and what is
the deployment value chain? Well, the
the easiest way of the manufact
of the willy chain is an
industrial end user
>> buys a heat pump from a heat pump
manufacturer.
>> And this really depends on the type
of industry on the size of the company.
>> also on yeah on the on the skill set
and competences that they have in energy
technologies. This really depends on
yeah on the company. So there are
companies that buy heat pumps and
integrate them in their production
and then there are companies that all
that are also
that
that also own the technology of the
processes that they're operating.
>> Yeah.
mentioning dryers before in this case
it would be the heat pump manufacturing
selling the heat pump to a dryer
manufacturer and then the end user would
buy a more energy efficient dryer from
the equipment manufacturer and there are
also EPC companies that provide
turnkey solutions where you get ready to
use heat pump
>> with everything and contracting is also
another way to get the heat
pump into industry. So there are
companies acting at as contractors. So
they would they basically buy the heat
pump and operate it and they just sell
the heat to the end user. And
the contracting model is also we
find this also in district heating when
industrial companies have wasted
available that's fed into district
heating grid and their contracting
models to do that.
>> Yeah., now I'm curious about the
policy side because you are part of the
European HIPPOM association.
so we wanted to know about your role
in the association and what is the
association role and their mission or
>> Okay.
>> projects.
>> Yeah. So I'm one of two co-chairs of the
industrial and commercial heat pump
group of EHB, the European heat pump
association. So the heat pump
association based in Brussels and they
they take care of
>> were you there last year at the in
November when they have their annual
conference?
>> Unfortunately not but it's on my list
to participate there. It's always
very interesting. so they are
advocating heat pumps in Brussels and
they represent heat pump
manufacturers in Europe and this
industrial and commercial heat pump
group is a forum for heat pump
manufacturers that are active in well in
the field of commercial industrial heat
pumps
>> and in this in this group we discuss on
>> possible applications
policy policy measures that that
would help the technology. we
discussed before about the paper
industry. Yeah.
>> the ICB group had a very interesting
collaboration with SEPY. SEPI is the
is the association of the
paper industry in Brussels and
together we elaborated an overview in
heat pump solutions for the paper
industry. And this was a very
interesting work because in those
workshops u representatives from heat
pump manufacturers met energy managers
from the paper industry and they were
discussing well how a good heat pump
could look like for the paper industry.
>>.
>> And there's also white paper
available from from this work. I
think that's a very good starting point
for a heat pump project that clarifies
all the all the important questions
to go on further. So this is the kind
of activity that we do within this
group.
>> Yeah. Well, we have a classmate who
we interviewed also and she's working in
Austropia. So we are going to let her
know and which you discuss
which policies would be needed to
foster or or to promote this
technology. Which one are they in the
table like incentives or
>> all all kinds of policies that reward
CO2 emission reductions and all kind
of policies that reward energy
efficiency.
this is then a heat pump has a
very good a very good place. So we
briefly discussed energy prices before.
part of the energy prices is also the
taxes that we pay on electricity and
gas. also the CO2 price is a
measure that makes a heat pump more
more interesting from economic
perspective.
>> Yeah. The higher the CO2 price is
>> the lower the payback.
>> Yeah.
>> because when you operate the heat
pump on renewable electricity
it's yeah you can save almost all
emissions. So
>>.
>> this is really good.
>> And in your opinion, which policy would
help to accelerate the heat pump
adoption?
>> so it's maybe not one specific
policy, but it's more about a
reliable framework or a pathway
towards climate neutrality that we all
that we all are here to..
>> because so when we when we think of
industrial decarbonization
this is not a single measure that
companies take but for them but
basically we're questioning everything
when it comes to process heat supply
like okay if we take out natural gas how
we will do it then
>> it's yeah so it's it's like a very big
change which requires a set of measures
which takes several investments which
takes longer. So if a company starts to
to work on this path, it's very
important to know that it's still the
right path in 10 in 15 years. And so
stability is one part. the CO2 price
I think is also an important so the
CO2 price has an impact on the
kind of decisions the companies take.
And what's also very interesting
mentioning the electricity to gas price
ratio which basically shows if the heat
pump pays off right now in the Nordic
countries it's almost one. So
electricity and gas costs the same and
then you really save you save energy
and money using a heat pump and this is
why heat pumps are really widespread
there. Would you say policies are
enabler for such for putting more
heat pumps or putting more
decarbonization factor because
Austria has some national policy and
Poland has no policy and you see the
difference because the adoption
difference and everything and so you
would say that Austria and in general
policies are enabler for
>> for new technology being adapted by the
industry.
>> Yeah. So in Austria there's a very
interesting funding program that's
called transformation of industry
>> that is really that's really acting
on decarbonization measures. So
basically it's well it's a variety
of projects that can be done
within this program can be research and
development pro projects like the
head project. it can be pilot and
and demonstration facilities also at
large scale and within this within
this program there is there are
there's funding for research projects
but there's also funding for investment
and which is new and it's also very
it's not very common but it's
available in Austria. There's also
operation cost funding. So companies
that replace a fossil energy carrier
with renewable energy carrier can also
apply for an opex funding where the
price difference between the two energy
carriers will be funded. That's part
of the transformation of industry
program and I think this is a very very
interesting measure to really
to push those ideas. and
>> it's in place
>> the overall program is in place
until 2030.
>>. So this is how how it's Yeah,
>> that's great.
>> How and a new round of this funding
call will be published very soon. So
probably next week or in two weeks.
>> so this is another opportunity for
companies to work on their
decarbonization measures and also to
get public funding to realize
them.
>> Cool. And how does it operation?
Well, the program is called
transformation of industry
transformation industry and the program
for this program there's also an
innovation lab Navy plus and this
innovation lab helps to create
projects for this for this
funding scheme. Navy plus is
structured in different innovation
hubs and I'm part of one of these
hubs the one on electrification and
energy efficiency.
of each hub.
>> it's it's it's always a group of
of researchers that that runs. So
we have six different hubs focusing on
the most important topics and it's a
group of three to four researchers
>> from within AIT
>> not only AIT but also with colleagues
from UNO city tats and several
more
>> maybe it's also a good idea to include
the Navy website in the show notes
and the link to the innovation hubs y
>> because this is really a good contact
point if yeah if you want to
create a project within transformation
of industry.
>> Well, we're happy to answer the
questions and then hope to come up with
a good project.,
>> yeah, maybe we could have a group
interview and with more would be great.
>> Yeah. And just discussing now about like
different technologies how how do
industrial
angle people who run industries and they
they need to make a choice about that
okay which technology to go for. M
>> so either go for hydrogen or go for high
temperature heat pump for mid to mid
temperature industrial heat. how what
are the choice and how do people make
the choices over there?
so in my opinion it's very important to
to take the perspective of the
process and really start from what is
actually needed to determine how to
to fulfill this energy demand on
different levels. So there's no
there's no real overlap between a high
temperature heat pump and a hydrogen
application because they are targeting
completely different temperature ranges.
So, so the temperature is one criteria
to decide on what to do and I would
Yeah. So there's this temperature
range below 200 and then there's
everything above I would so to make
it simple and
>> with hydrogen there's no
comparison it should be for DRI but
but let's say like similar technology
>> well what are what are the options
that we have so we can use renewable
electricity we can use renewable gases
>> from either from a biogenous origin
If you think of fermentation or
gasification or we can produce renewable
gases from from
like a synthetic origin using hydrogen
from from electrolyes and combine it
with CO2 that was captured from a
biogenous source.
We can use direct electrification.
>>.
>> I think that's basically it. Those are
the those are the renewable options that
we have. And of course internal heat
recovery. So first of all, how can I use
the energy that I already use in a more
efficient way? if there are hot if
there's some exhaust hot exhaust gas,
use it to preheat some other streams
and then covering the remaining
energy demand as a function of the
temperature.
>>.
>> This is this is basically how how how
to come to a efficient solution. And
then of course there are local boundary
conditions. So there might be there
might be limitations on the electricity
grid. there might be there might be
a PV plant close by or so there are
different different boundary conditions
and it's also possible to
to solve the energy
supply together with the neighbors. So
also if you think of industrial
companies that are located close
together well when you think of
different energy solutions it might
also be an interesting choice to
collaborate with companies in the in the
vicinity because someone might have
waste heat that's interesting for
someone else to use it as a heat
source.
>>.
>> yeah and thinking about the future
because we went to Hamburg for a trip
with the classmates and we attended to a
lecture and a professor showed a chart
with the use of heat pumps. It's
exploding.
>> So how do you see the future for heat
pumps?
>> Yeah, that's a nice picture. there
are also some other there's also an
an IA report that was published a
couple of years ago. that was
mentioning tremendous growth rates for
industrial heat pumps. So basically
well if we take this serious if we
really want to decarbonize industry
also using well renewable energy
sources local energy sources there's
a lot to do and there are many
opportunities to integrate heat pumps
and
well this is I mentioned this not
only because I'm I'm working in this
field but also what I always find
what I still find very appealing is that
a heat pump well recovers waste heat.
So you basically get more than you put
in.
>> This is a very very interesting option.
>> So if if it's possible it's definitely
worth considering and this also means
growth for the whole value chain. So you
need production facilities, you need
people who can integrate heat pumps in
industries
>> also to also on the side of the
industrial end users. So what we've seen
in the last 10 years that I'm now
working in this field is so when when I
started usually the first question was
so okay what's a heat pump and how does
it actually work and when we now discuss
with industrial companies they
already know this and they already know
about their heat sources and heat sinks
because it's such a valuable tool to
get more out of what you already have.
>> Okay. you just mentioned something
that I wanted to ask you like
is when when you try to explain
something difficult simpler for your
family for example how you how do you
explain what is a hit in simple words
just to it's a hard it's hard
exercise but for maybe you can do it.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Sure. well with a heat
pump we convert low temperature heat
into high temperature heat and we use
electricity to do that. So that's like
without going into any details.
>> but if you if you would be interested
in what's happening inside the heat pump
we can add some more details here.
>> a heat pump consists of two heat
exchangers that connects it to the heat
sink and the heat source. And it has a
compressor and an expansion valve. And
it's basic it's basically a
thermodynamic cycle. So we have
different states that we go through all
of the time. So starting at the heat
source that's the first heat
exchanger. So here we take in energy
from the environment could be ambient
air if it's like a single family house
could be industrial waste heat. We cool
this stream and when we cool this stream
the refrigerant that's the working
medium in the heat pump it evaporates
and then it's a gas. This gas is then
compressed in a compressor and then it
has a higher temperature and pressure
>> and the higher and then it goes
through another heat exchanger
getting in contact with a medium that's
colder.
>> Yeah,
>> that's the heat sink and this is why the
gas condenses. It's then liquid and then
we have the expansion off. It basically
releases the pressure and then we have a
liquid at a low pressure and the whole
cycle starts again. So what we do with a
heat pump is making use of the
properties of this working medium of the
refrigerant inside the heat pump that
evaporates and condenses at different
temperatures at different pressures.
>>. Yeah, it's very good
because it's it's a hard exercise.
And what about the refrigerants that you
are using inside
>> because they also have a high impact in
gr in green houses gases and emissions.
And how about the leakages in the
system?
>> U how much time do we still have because
refriger refrigerance is a big topic but
I try to make it make it short.
So first of all heat pumps industrial
heat pumps they were expected to be
tight. So there should be no leakages at
all.
>> the idea of such a thermodynamic
cycle is that you can do it on and on
and on and on. And the medium inside the
cycle always stays inside the cycle. And
for the closed loop heat pump at
the we using a refrigerant butane is
is flammable. so of course there's
also safety equipment at in the room
where the heat pump is located to be
able to detect these leakages at a
very early stage and also to prevent
that first of all to prevent that
hazardous atmospheres are formed or
that it comes to an hazardous
event and also to remove the
the amount of refrigerant that has been
that has been leaked. M so leakage is
a failure. This is not it's not normal
operation for such a heat pump. So they
are expected to be tight.
>> Okay.
>> same true for the
for the refrigerator in households.
So most of our refrigerators are
operating on propane and they are
tight.
>> So there's no there's no leakage. But
what's important when we think about the
history of refrigerants. So as I said we
are using these material properties
of evaporating and condensing on
different temperatures and this is a
very it's a very interesting effect. So
we can look at this from a molecular
basis and finding the right substance
that
>> does these phase changes in the
specific temperatures and pressures that
we want on the one hand to be able
to build small units units that do not
have too much pressure inside that are
easy to handle. So in the history of
refrigerations many different substances
were used and also not all of the old
systems were as tight that I've
mentioned right now.
>> So old refrigerants had an impact
on the atmosphere. so
florinated and chlorinated river trends
not all of them but some they have
they had they had well they were
active in the atmosphere and they were
also deteriorating the oson layer.
>> So this is also why they were forbidden
and they were really phased out. So
this is basically a success story of
environmental protection the Montreal
protocol that we were able to remove
these substances from to ban their use
and come up with better
alternatives.
>> So what is currently used in heat pumps
are substances that are not that
have so that they do not attack the
ozone layer at all..
>> So there's there's a value to measure
that. It's called the ozone depleting
potential. That's zero. And the second
value that's important is the global
warming potential. it's a value
basically comparing the substance to
CO2.
And it's also very important that
they have a low global warming
potential.
>>.
>> And yeah.
>> Great. And what happened at the end
of the lifespan of heat pump? What
happened with the gas when
>> they are
>> Yeah. Yeah. They are emptied. So you
need a certified a certified
engineer who who knows how to empty
the equipment. So it's basically it's
it the refrigerant is sucked out and
stored into bottles. It can be reused.
It can be recycled.
>> so the gas remains and the equipment
have to be changed but the gas can be
the same.
>> yeah so the gas has to be cleaned. So
just you can clean it and reuse it.
That's that's
>> Yeah. And then if you cannot reuse it,
it's it's disposed in a controlled
way.
>>.
>> So it's not like dumping your
refrigerator somewhere in the wood and
Okay.
>> Yeah. So no, it's it's like it's a
very well established end of life.
>> So when when you entered this space 10
years ago, people were asking what what
is heat pump. Now it's exploding. a
lot more people would like to enter this
space. What advice you would like to
give to young engineers getting into the
space? How exciting it is? What is the
current scenario? What is the barrier to
to entry?
>> Oh, interesting question. So, first of
all, I think it's a great field. So,
congratulations to everyone
joining us here. as an advice for
young people, I would say yeah, be be
curious. be creative and also be
persistent.
>>.
>> decarbonization is a long-term
journey
>> will keep us busy for the next decades
and many of these measures take a
while. They need preparing they need
good ideas. it's important to
convince to con convince others that
these are good ideas and to
really put them in well into real
life. But I would say it's it's
a very interesting work. So I really
enjoy my work because you mentioned the
barriers. I think it's interest is
is u the first part. So being being
interested in what's going around in
in the energy field, what's what's
happening also in terms of developing
technology development.
>> I think it's very useful to have
completed technical studies. I
would definitely recommend studying
chemical engineering.
>> Okay.
>> because for me it's it was a
very good experience and a very very
useful foundation to explore the
different field of energy
>> still decarbonization right?
>> Yes that's a nice fit definitely.
>> Amazing. It's a very good mix. We in
the description we describe you as
a bridge between applied research and
industry. So it's super
like applied research. It's it's
great.
>> So the interesting part of applied
research is to really to really work
together with companies that want to
that want to try something new that
want to change something. So it's
also a big thank you to all of our
partners who well who dare to work on
research projects who really have the
courage and the vision to follow
new ideas. No. Great. Yeah, I think
great to have you, Veronica. Very
insightful
>> and yeah, for sure it's a topic to talk
about the next decades as you said. So
great.
>> Thank you very much and congratulations
for the project ahead project and
on 22nd there will be the results
will be out and we are glad that you
also will be presenting about it in our
forum on 25th. Yeah, looking forward to
your conference and I would like to
use the last minute also to extend an
invitation for another conference
>> because in May 26 there will be the IA
heat pump conference in Vienna and
AIT is responsible for the organization
and
>> yeah we would like to welcome you all
at the conference. It's it's the
largest conference on heat pumps in
Europe and we cover all the topics from
residential to industrial to district
heating all sorts of heat pump
applications that you can think of.
>> Amazing.
>> It's for
>> what is it?
>> 26th to 29th of May.
>> It takes place in Hofbook.
>>.
>> we expect about 1, 000 attendees and
we have already received 600 abstracts.
So there will be
>> lots of information on research projects
on ongoing activities. very exciting
exchange of knowledge.
>> Yeah,
>> sounds very good. Yeah, thank you very
much again for coming here and
thank you to the community for watching
the interview until the end and keep
tuned for next episode of the bridge.
Thank you.
>> See you in next episode. Ciao.

184°C: How High-Temperature Heat Pumps Are Transforming Industrial Decarbonization | S1E20

Optimize process temperature, not just replace.

Heat pumps beat other electric heating.

Digital tools boost heat pump reliability.

Policy frameworks drive industrial adoption.

Refrigerant leakage is a system failure.