S1E04

PV & Heating Project Development, Permitting in CEE with Alexander Fischer - TEB Podcast S1E4

with Alexander Fischer· Technical University of Vienna· 68m

TL;DR

The podcast discusses energy transition strategies in Central and Eastern Europe.

Synopsis

Alexander Fischer shares insights on the energy transition in Central and Eastern Europe, focusing on heating and renewable technologies. He emphasizes the importance of local engagement and the need for supportive policies to facilitate investments in energy efficiency and renewable energy.

Key metrics

by the numbers · 5

70%
Household heating consumption
€30,000-40,000
Home energy upgrade cost
6 years
PV investment payback
20 kWh
Battery storage capacity
2040
Austrian carbon neutrality target

Topics

5 tags

permitting reformdistrict heatingenergy efficiencyrenewable energycommunity engagement

Stats

Duration: 1h 08m
Words: 9.9k
Questions: 35

Timeline

6 chapters

Introduction of Alexander Fischer
The hosts introduce Alexander Fischer and discuss his background in energy.
Biomass district heating systems
Fischer discusses the trend of biomass heating systems in Austria during the late 1990s.
Home energy efficiency measures
Fischer shares his personal experience with home insulation and energy efficiency improvements.
Community engagement in energy transition
Fischer describes how his neighbors became interested in energy efficiency after his upgrades.
Energy transition in Eastern Europe
Discussion on the energy landscape and transition challenges in Eastern Europe.
Future energy scenarios
Fischer outlines Austria's goals for renewable energy and carbon neutrality by 2040.

Key insights

4 takeaways

01
Community engagement is crucial
Local interest in energy efficiency can be sparked through personal examples and shared experiences.
02
Investment costs are significant
Initial costs for renewable technologies can be high, necessitating government support and incentives.
03
Focus on small-scale projects
Smaller energy projects may be easier to implement and can collectively contribute to larger goals.
04
Energy independence drives transition
Reducing dependence on fossil fuels is a key motivation for transitioning to renewable energy.

Transcript1518 cuesClick a timestamp to jump

Welcome to this new interview from
Energy Bridge. Today we have a
professor from our program and it's a
privilege to having you here Alex. If
we can tell you Alex it's well he
will tell us about his experience and
personal motivation in energy field and
we're going to explore a bit the CE
region in energy transition and
something about Austria. So yeah, now
>> we have here with Rahul because last
time we didn't introduce ourselves. So
here's Daniel, Rahul and Professor
Alexander Fisher.
>> We are learning.
>> We're learning. We are learning how to
be on the camera.
>> No, but Alex, as Daniel said, I can
we can say Alex.
>> Please say Alex. Yes.
>> Thank you for making out the time. I
mean, we know you on a personal level at
Wilson. That's why we are we are easy
but yeah we would like to just give
you the ground introduce yourself and
all the amazing work that you have done.
>> Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah,
before we start, let me thank you very
much and let me express my honor to be
here to be invited to this session to
talk with you about the energy energy
field which is as you said already my my
passion and yeah I'm I had the
pleasure or have still the pleasure to
to lecture at the technical university
and I had you in the class
>> and yeah now it's going on energy is
going on and it's a very important
topic.
>> It's very important. So maybe we could
start from the beginning like your
personal motivation to get into this
field and how do you see it back in the
time?
>> How was the young Alex when he decided
this this journey?
>> Oh young Alex is long time ago.
>> No long time ago. yeah well I had
an education in Austria technical
education in mechanical engineering and
with this yeah it paves the
ground for my next steps. I did not
stop learning at that time. I then
added in technical education in civil
construction
>> okay
>> and engineering as well. but I
then had the chance to start in a
consulting office.
>> I was hired there after the
school directly after school and I
started there with design of HVAC
systems and so on. And
>> where was it?
>> in Vienna. It was it was in Vienna
already. a big Austrian
vianese engineering company hired
me and as I said I started with
accounting radiators and all that stuff
>> from the consumption
>> from no no no from how much radiators
do you need in a building and so
really really the basics were really the
basics of engineering
>> no I'm from upper Austria I'm I'm
originally from upper Austria but and
some the school and the
possibility to take this
construction school brought me to Vienna
because the opportunity was here.
>> and yeah, Vena did not leave me.
>> So I beautiful city.
>> It's a beautiful city and huge of huge
advantages and possibilities.
>> Yeah, we were traveling for a week. We
can tell you that we miss we a lot
>> really already after a week. the last
days were like, "Oh, I want to be back."
>> Okay. Okay. Great. Great to hear that.
>> please tell the professor about your
journey.
>> and yeah, with the with the
starting counting the radiators
and all that stuff. it was a bit
boring honestly this this this type of
of engineering. But then I had the
chance to step into the energy energy
field, energy department. were looking
for some stuff and here I
had I had the chance to start with
the design of biomass heating plants
>> and at the late 90s it was late 90s
there was a big trend in Austria and
also c Eastern Europe already to make
studies look into that field into
district heating systems on biomass
from from biomass
>> from biomass bio district heating
systems
>> biomethan or
>> no no no
not even electricity just heat just the
heat production so the district
heating system is not that common in
Austria
>> so
also it was I think the first initiative
from the Austrian government to step out
of fossile energy
>> it Kyoto protocol was at that time
the leading the leading guideline and
document
>> and here Austria government in so
so set in place a subsidy scheme for
this kind of biomass district heating
systems
>> that's it and when was it
>> it was the late late '9s
>> late ' 90s
>> and now there is this project that we're
going to talk about in the conference in
May which is the geothermal
project that they are making now for
district heating
>> in Vienna.
>> In Vienna. Yeah. Geothermal district
heating.
>> Super. Okay.
>> So, yeah. Yeah. It's very interesting.
we were seeing lately like how the
energy is consumed in households
>> and it's almost 70% only heating and to
heat water.
>>.
>> For consumption and for heating
the house. So maybe we could go into the
to get into your home because you
told us something about your
the technology that you have
implemented after all or your knowledge
in your
>> like your own experiment in your house.
>> So yeah it would be nice to know how
is that experience with all that the
PV project that you have electric
vehicle the heat pump because you
started with radiator so how do you do
it now in your house if you could tell
us a bit how is the
>> and also I think most of it was
learning from your product right so if
you can also tell what you learned from
your project and what you did it at
home.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for asking and
great that you have still memories to
that what I what I told you in the in
the class. during the lecture of the
energy concepts during preparation of
the documents I was I was thinking about
some practical examples and I had some
studies which I presented all the time.
and then I had also I thought okay
but these are big scale the energy
concepts on big scales but also I think
important for our energy transition are
the energy on a on a small scale what
everybody in his household can do.
>> Okay.
>> And this I implemented then into my
my course what what I did and yeah
what what what did I do? I had a
very small house with 90 square meters.
>>.
>> It was built at the 70s. And I also
thought and this was during our well
let's say energy crisis where energy
price gas price went up. I had a gas
boiler installed for central heating and
I thought okay what what can I do? What
can I do here? And then I said okay look
I'm in the working in the field. I'm
teaching I'm lecturing in that field
then I need to be to be a positive
example and be a be here running here in
this in this in this field and
>> as I told you a first thing is to reduce
the energy consumption. So my concept
was then what is the isolation bad
isolation. So first the step was to make
an isolation on the building.
>> Okay., and on the walls on the walls,
walls for
>> walls, roof and windows and doors. I
exchanged except the carrying walls
everything there.
>> Unfortunately, I could not improve the
the floor because then I would have
to need to dismantle everything, all
the furniture.
>> Cost effective at the end, right? It's
too much spent to change all the floor
and then install and bring.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And the gains the gains
of it is
>> your house it's in a building or it's
like a
>> No, it's a it's a standalone building
almost. Yeah.
>> Yeah. That maybe we could share because
it was very insightful insightful from
the classes is that the most cost
effective energy efficiency measure in a
household is to insulate the roof.
>> From the beginning besides everything is
important from the design that is much
cheaper. you can save 25 30% of the
of the features to have a sustainable
house in the design is very important
and to insulate the roof. So you
started for that to cover the house
>> to so to reduce as much as I could
the energy demand
>> and then I was thinking okay what is the
next step according to my lecture is
then thinking on adapting the energy
production
>> okay
>> and here I said okay well is the what is
the alternative to the gas gas boiler
it's in my case the air water heat
pump.
>> heat pump. Yeah, that's the
>> So, I replaced the boiler through the
water heat pump and doing that I
needed to come back to my radiator issue
from the beginning. You remember what I
said? I had to replace my radiators
because also the these radiators has
been very old and were on high
temperature level design because sure if
you have a gas a gas boiler it runs on
high temperature flow rate. and
I had to do then going for the
heat pump and so reduce here the
flow temperature and these demands and
and change of the radiators.
you had it like you had the
passion for it. So but a lot of people
may watch it or and a lot of people
who were your neighbors. What was the
reaction? And did you did you they asked
you for a moral thing asking you for how
much consumption that you were able
to save and were you able to maybe
consult some other people?
>> Oh yes. Yes. It was it was the right
time because we had it before it was
just the just let's say the climate
issue in television in public media.
>> but at that time when I did it, we
had really the crisis. We had a rising
prices and well the gas the gas
demand or gas supply was in danger and
in discussion and so on and so this was
a good
>> year.
>>?
>> What year? This was 20 20 2020 2020
2021 at that time
>> it was co pandemic and yeah after
after that the war yeah and I
shared I shared my thoughts with my
neighbors what I'm doing
>> and they were skeptical at the at the
beginning and then well the first one
said I also decided to change. I also
decided to change my gas into into a
heat pump.
>> Nice. So,
>> and I also shared and then what what
I told you then the PV the PV plant
because with having the heat
pump I also wanted to produce my
own energy. So, not to be to take the
energy from the grid to take others
energy. I wanted to produce my own
energy. what I need for my comfort.
>> Perfect.
>> So then I took took the investment for
the PV plant and also this I shared with
my neighbors and they followed. I had
here a very nice group where they said
okay they are doing the same with a time
shift and with all the discussions made
them think and consider their demands
their advantages and they opted and
decided for the same investment and this
was amazing
>> really really I was really happy that
the these people which were not so
detached to energy or renewables
>> how much was the cost for to change
everything.
>> but it
>> you already defined you about 90 square
meter
>> yeah well let's say all together
>> around around
>> around say 30 to 40, 000
>> all together
>> but with heat pump
>> with heat pump with the radiators before
insulation heat pump PV plant battery
storage and so on. So for sure you made
the numbers. What is the
>> ROI?
>> ROI. Yeah. In how many years you feel
the pay?
>> Yeah. So I adapted my presentation to
the students and exactly that I did
include in the u presentation which I
had the pleasure to hold the past
weekend
>> and I just calculated the PV the PV
installation
>> and here I said within six years I've
recovered the investment just for
the PV and the battery package
>> and heat pump is it's too rentable or
>> let invite me once again and I will
present the exact figures after
that. I don't have it now
>> and we went to event in Amsterdam
last week and they were talking about
zero bills houses. So how is your house
in bills after all that
investment? You have small bills or
paying the same? How how has been the
difference? H yeah.
regarding the bills, my ambition is
still to be energy or talk on the
electrical level.
>> So I analyzed my PV plus battery. I
installed a 10.2 kW hours battery in my
house.
>>. And this winter I figured
out that we have some foggy days and
after the foggy days we have very bright
sunshine, huge sun and I fill up the
battery and inject a lot of energy in
the grid into the grid in winter time.
>> Okay.
>> So and the logical consequence was
then to increase the battery the battery
storage capacity and they installed the
second 10 KV kilowatt hours package. So
I have 20 kilowatt hours and since this
in installation I don't need any power
from the grid.
>> Wow.
>> So I can
>> that's the consumption.
>> So yeah other otherwise I had well
the full load battery full loaded
battery in let's say noon time and
during the afternoon and during the
night I discharged the battery and from
3:00 onwards I then took electricity
from the grid. feedback.
>> But now now I can with that battery I
have still 20 30% in the morning and if
sun rises then it fills up the battery
again.
>> Okay. And now I don't know if you
have more this technological toys in
your house but the electric vehicle how
do you do it during the night is part of
this load package?
>> Yeah. well my my electrical
vehicle was one part of my personal
energy contribution. So that I said okay
if I want to have comfort in
transportation I don't want to
destroy the environment. I don't
want to emit CO2. I invest in electric
vehicle. yeah but this does not match
to the size of PV plant what I have
>> because my electrical vehicle has a
battery capacity of 77 kilowatt hours
and I just produce let's say the
20 for the battery I have in the
house. If I would charge with that the
the car the car would be partly full and
and I would have nothing left for my
house.
>> True. So I have I charge it from the
grid the car but I selected here a
100% renewable energy heat supply energy
supply electrical energy supplier
from wind wind energy
>> amazing so you can choose here yeah you
have
>> yeah I have the freedom to choose
whatever supplier I will take and I
took a wind energy developer who
sells directly the wind power and
that this electricity I feed in my my
car. So I'm not from my own PV plant,
but I still know that's 100% green
electricity.
>> Maybe I want the nerdy part of the
details, but so you have an electrical
circuit independent for the car and
the house. You have 2 mters or only 1
meter?
>> No, it's only one meter. only one
>> and everything is split in.
>> You're basically saying that you will
never charge the car from your in winter
time. In summer time I would have enough
electricity to charge it but not to
fully charge it because also their
production during the day is not from 20
to 80% of the battery. I would need two
days when I've pl when I plug in and I
use the surplus energy of my house of my
PV plant then I will put it into the car
but it takes me two days to be fully
charged.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. Okay. That is very amazing.
>> It was very insightful inspiring.
>> Yeah. And inspiring as well.
I'm glad that you're doing it and you
already being able to do it for your
neighbors as well.
>> Yeah. It's like be the change you
want to see in the world.
>> This is the an example.
>> Thank you. Thank you.
>> but Alex, we would like to go
forward to understand a bit more
about the Austrian landscape.
>>.
>> how how how do you see you
said you're old, right?
>> I know you're young, but let's say from
' 90s onwards, how did you see the
the energy landscape changing in
Austria?. yeah, we had some some
very small trends to renewables.
and in Austria basically it was on
the heating site it was connected to
wood..
>> So it was the pallets oven. There
was well a development of that. We had
wood chips wood chips district heating.
What I what I told you at the beginning
>> biomass this kind of woody woody
biomass.
>> this was a trend trend at that time.
yeah then after the heating then
also we had the feeding tariff a new
feed in tariff law. It was 2004 I guess
when they started and then they did
reshape the law afterwards and then we
had a trend into cogeneration.
>> Okay.
>> So that installing a biomos boiler
producing steam basic basically and you
have the heat and
>> serial heat to generate more steam more
>> more steam and yeah right heat and
electricity. but here at the
beginning we had the issue that the law
did not
force let's say the project development
is such that you have electrical
production and the need for the heat
use. So we had some projects at the
beginning using just electricity and
as we know from from the lecture we just
use let's say 22 25% of the energy of
the wood and the rest
>> it's heat
>> it hits the to the to the
environment. So you move as a country it
started with renewables in biomass and
then I have seen plenty of windmills. So
in some point
>> right yeah
>> were they fostered or it was natural
from the market
>> it was also a let's say a result
of the feeding tariff law what we had
>> so that some companies entrepreneurs
pioneers at that time stepped into
the electrical energy production and
said wind power is mine and they were
if you if you're going from Vienna to
towards Hungary, you see in that area
a lot of windmills because this is
really really good for that. We have a
very constant a relatively high wind
speed and perfect for that. So there
was a development from the electrical
point of view in wind energy. -.
>> I have a question about like wood as a
as a carrier energy carrier
>> because where I come from wood was
like okay you should not be using wood
for cooking food it's pollution I
mean of course there there's so many
other stuff about it but using wood as a
carrier if you can explain that
how exactly it's still renewable.
Yeah. Well, this is a good discussion.
if you if I burn wood, you have a you
have you produce CO2. This is a chemical
reaction. But, considering the whole
life cycle of a tree and the combustion
of it, and taking into consideration
that we in Austria have a reforestation
regime and law and everybody is
interested. If you own a forest, you're
interested in keeping the forest as
such. Even if you take a wood a tree out
of it, you replant something so that you
have still a forest. and taking
this circle into consideration, it
was defined that wood biomass is
considered as COR neutral.
>> Okay. for the whole life
>> for the whole life cycle considering the
whole life cycle from growing up
absorbing capturing the CO2 until using
it burning it then
>> it would not be same for every country
right like it's
>> no yeah right you were right and
this this discussion started started
again also on a new level having in
mind that this discussion about the red
three directive
>> where this especially
was reconsidered if we should stick
on the zero zerocarbon
emission neutral strategy because in
fact you have a more CO2
production when you burn it in a very in
a shorter period of time than the
tree takes it to absorb the CO2. So
if you have the lifespan of the tree,
it's 30 40 years and you release that
that CO2 within days or hours even.
>> So the there is an imbalance and yeah
this is a discussion going on if wood
should be still considered as neutral.
>> Yeah. Also we saw it in a lecture about
architecture that it's the same debate
from house made of good if they are
neutral or not because what happened
after
>> that's a discussion it's a hot
>> yeah it's a it's it's a it's a good it's
a good thing and also I think one
one thing was using the biomass for
energy production should we do that or
should we leave the tree in a forest
which still absorbs CO2 two and the
other is releasing CO2 but compensating
the energy demand what you have which
might be fossil fuel. So
>> yeah long discussion
>> another episode just for
>> just for those terminology. No but
but it's always great that to ask
such questions because in the whole
dialogue that we are having about energy
transition to be we always need to make
sure that even in a region at EU at
CE
for Austria there are a lot of different
biases that you need to consider. So
>> yeah, just going forward into that like
you of course you have a lot
of background in Austria but we know
that how much of the work that you have
done in central and the eastern
Europe
>> how you saw the energy landscape
transitioning
and over there like all across if you
have some examples.
>>.
Yeah. in the eastern eastern
Europe was also very interested into
into the technologies and into the
schemes as well. also here biomass
in that region where where wood is
available was an issue or
thinking on my project in Romania in
the wind energy sector. also where
here the area is suitable for wind
also. Here this was this was a thing
which they took early enough. and
yeah
try to try to attract also to investors
and bless you and main main driver
for that was the establishment of a
feeding
>> was the feeding was the feeding tariff
system. If there was a feed and tariff
system in place, this
gives the let's say economical ground to
invest to have a stable investment to
get funds even. So there were there if
some feeding tariff system was in place
in Romania we have the green we had
the green certificate or if you have a
direct feed in tariff whatever whatever
system if you have something then such
such projects an incentive system in
which case ever then investments were
attracted into into that field.
>> Are there now some feed and tariff
regime in some countries in central
eastern Europe or or they don't have
feed and tariff.
actually I did not follow that
that what is currently
>>
but yeah I guess there are still
still some feed in tariffs because the
existing plants wind PV projects
whatever does need this this feed and
tariff system to survive let's say
>> yeah well if someone knows about some
feed and tariffing leave in the comments
to keep learning right because what
is happening there in central and
eastern Europe and it's one of the
purpose or or this talks it's to
showcase what is happening there so
>> doing audience interview
>> participate yeah that's
super
>> but also you got to
work in Romania was there some other
country in Eastern Europe
>> I think Croatia Croatia. Yeah,
>> Croatia a lot at the beginning also in
Hungary because there was a alo from
Austrian from the Austrian government
some subsidies for supporting their
district heating system. So if you have
a neighbor a neighbor city which is
polluting fossil emissions emissions
out of fossil energy then also
government did also give some subsidies
and we did some projects over there also
some district heating systems on guess
what biomass.
Yeah, we love our
>> P.
>> But also just to understand do you
feel with your experience of working
in these countries so much like what
do you see there there are a lot of
projects happening over there but what
what what projects you think should be
in priority for the energy
transition that we envision.
Yeah, the thinking also on the Austrian
market where maybe other frame
conditions are but the problems I
guess are always the same is the
distribution network the electrical
distribution network
because I think on the small scale
household level we can replace
fossil energy through going into
electricity.
We can use heat pumps for our heating
and should really keep the fossil
energy for that industries where they
really need fossil energy to have high
temperature processes for instance where
we need to burn something
>> not for everything that's
>> not for everything because I think we
should have we should know now that this
is really a high value
>> the fossil energy is high value in
the in so far that it's limited
because at some point we are out of
out of energy and to keep that energy
what we have for that industries
which really needs it
>> and we should not waste it for let's
say space heating
>> yeah exactly made sense
>> and also for transportation we would
have other other solutions to go with
>> and I have a question in the sense
that we hear that now CE as a
region is not going to be dependent on
Russian gas and all of that because of
everything that is happening but it is
still Hungary still had some of them
coming and Austria too. No, they it was
caught in once a
>> couple of months.
>> Well, yeah. I just can believe what
what is told in the media
>> and there and there's a trend going away
from from Russian Russian gas. I
know that we are still we have still a
contract but I think we are on
solving that issue that we are
obliged to take gas
and we have other sources already
where to take the natural gas from.
>> Yeah. my question is bit more on
as we think about the energy mix
scenario for this region then
>> away from gas. yeah we talked
about a lot of renewable potential what
else do you see as a new technology
which is just specified for C as a
region and not we are not
dependent on let's say like western
Europe about Scandinavia just for
Austria like neighboring countries
and like further away which has coast so
what do you see what's going to be the
new energy scenario for all of this
region
Wow, what a question.
>> Yeah, really, really, really, really.
Yeah. What? What could be
>> You don't get him every day.
>> Yeah. Yes.
>> Yeah. Tricky, tricky.,
yeah.
to h I think this
to distinguish a bit and the real as
as we said we should go into
electrician into electricity which is
our driver for well mobility and for
space he sitting and for the rest for
industries we have some energy demands
which it's eventually or partially be
can be replaced by electricity as well.
>> But on the other hand side, we need some
some energy energy carrier to
supply this sort of this sort of energy
for this industrial production.
Yeah. And here an alternative is
hydrogen from from my perspective.
And we analyzed this in a in a study
in a Romanian project
where we
thought about the solution for district
heating companies and this is one one
thing we looked into.
>>.
>> Yeah. To use hydrogen. but yeah
this is also the next high value in a
chic carrier because we say when we talk
about the hydrogen we say green hydrogen
so we used to we have to use renewable
energy for that so therefore we have to
have the capacity of electrical power to
produce all the hydrogen we need and
therefore we need to install much much
more renewable energy production
plants Yeah,
>> on that note just the followup thing
because you and I completely agree
that for electricity generation
there's a lot happening in if we take
the example of Austria as well but for
industry for all the high high heat
processes that they have they require
their own energy carrier there
could be a certain degree of
electrification that can be done and I
believe they everyone is aiming for it
but you need secondary energy carrier
>> what is the timeline you see because
this is the interesting stuff that I ask
everyone everyone is guessing but
let's see what's our guess here what
do you see like going forward what is
the scenario that we're looking at
>> yeah well on the one hand side we
have our scenario which which is
Well,
the perspective of our government that
in 2030 for Austria, we would like to be
we would like to produce 100% of
electricity from renewables
>> and 2040
carbon neutral.
>> Carbon neutral, right? This is the
target set by the Austrian government
for some some years ago.
>>.
>> yeah. Well we know that we
increase our electrical consumption year
by year.
>> Yeah.
>> Through heat pumps, electrical demands
and other other things what we have but
we are not that fast to increase our
production capacities.
So just just on that just on the demand
side and the production side the demand
gets gets bigger and this consumes the
additional electrical production which
we which we install every year. So
>> this is for
>> the gap that we are talking about
>> I think so around
>> 20 20% around 20% something which we
have to run after we have the big
advantage of hydropower in Austria.
>> This is the beautiful day
and electricity.
Perfect. Perfect. Right. This is the
hydrop power which gives the high
percentage of renewable content already.
But the last 20% is really hard to be
done.
>> Yeah.
>> Because on the other hand side you see
well our colleagues, professor
colleagues and other people
prepared the studies. therefore said
that wind and PV is there the
alternative for Austria to make this
gap but looking into the media as well
nobody wants them nobody wants a
windmill or nobody wants a PV project
>> that's a banana
problem right build anything near my
place
>> not even PV
>> not even yeah PV PV on the house this is
not a question but the big big PV
Big P projects
>> utility scale
>> utility scale in megawatt scale. This is
this is the this is the issue to first
get a dedicated area where you allowed
to and then to get this dedication. This
is this is the big issue. So we are
running after the electrical
renewable part. but then thinking on
the next step to add additional
electrical power to produce this new
energy carrier let's say hydrogen or or
or ammonia or whatever whatever you
have in mind in that sense so this is
this is really the challenge what we
have
>> yeah yeah the last
>> the last the last percentage of it's
>> but professor and Alex
do you see that the this region of
central and eastern Europe with the EU
definition the 11 countries and Austria
most advanced system energy
system compared to like the
neighbors for sure what what do you
think the their regional cooperation can
be to making sure that the other energy
system evolve like of course you get
to do a lot of projects there there are
a lot of projects happening they're
lacking some knowledge transfer for sure
but Austria has a lot of opportunity as
well in terms of toal cooperation and
and doing the thing that had not been
done like from your experience what are
the challenges that you had to face in
some of those countries if you can nail
>> yeah personally we started in 2010
the development of a biomass
generation plant which we could never
even start start in start building it.
We were stuck in the doc preparation of
documentation applying for permits and
if we got one we lost another one. So
>> that was in
>> ination.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the on the one
hand side we face the bureaucratic
burdens
>> permitting
>> permits the permit structures and
and that I don't know if this was
because we have been foreign investors
if a local investor would have been
faster or it would be easier for them
but I can just share my experience here
and this we tried a lot of
the a lot of time to it forward.
We brought in the knowhow. We had the
knowhow how to design and we had all the
papers but get the permits and all
the stuff. Yeah.
>> Yeah. And could would you say that
it's a knowledge transfer gap that we
have with the CE region and Western
Europe like for example in order
to understand more the projects to give
the permits because it's better for the
electric electrical matrix or in other
countries like Romania you mentioned or
Polonia who are the carbonizing
fast as we have seen. how do you see
the importance of knowledge transfer?
>>.
>> Oh well technologically wise I think
there is no need of no knowledge
transfer. They have brilliance brilliant
technicians over there in Romania in
Croatia. I work together. I have dear
friends over there. they are technicians
and we made projects together. So
everybody benefits from the experience
from the others. So I think there is no
need to tell them how to what to do.
>> well it's the structure
itself how how to set up on a on a
a higher level such such things. What
what is the intention?
because I think here
the affordable
cost of energy
>> this is one thing this is on the
governmental level which should be
considered first before
promoting the subsidy scheme or so
>> because I've seen the initiatives of the
government. Yes, we promote here a
subsidizing scheme, a feed in tariff,
green certificates. And then the
government figured out, okay, when the
project realized what does it cost
>> on the budget level, what do I need to
pay according to the law I give
>> to this company and then we have seen in
the countries different changes than in
the in the in the laws. because
finally somebody needs to pay that and
this is a basically the population and
here we need to be very careful what
a population can afford to pay for the
energy.
>> Okay. But would you say that renewable
energy is cheaper than fossil energy?
Right.
renewable energy. oh, it
depends when when which which year you
consider when we when we say the years
before we had really cheap energy and my
my personal opinion the energy was too
cheap
>> because not really energy saving
measures were even considered also here
not in Austria. So here because we had
really cheap energy to cheap gas
>> what we then saw when we had the
increase of the gas prices that the
energy has a value and it's really worse
to save the energy to re to think if I
should take the car
if I should do this trip or not
>> if I should take the plane or not or I
can do my my conversation why I miss
teams
>> but your personal life in some point and
>> then you realize how important is we
give it like granted but
>> yeah we give it for granted because at
the petrol station okay we can afford
the price
>> but I think this is also one thing the
the energy should have the real value
>> that we really are forced more or
attracted not not forced let's say more
attracted to save the energy to be
more respectful in the use of energy.
>> Yeah, it's well part of the our mission
is also to transfer knowledge to the
citizens or not energy related
professionals and people.
>> Yeah. And so
>> magic of television.
>> Yeah. we were talking about the
differences that you see in
Western and Eastern Europe in terms of
energy transition
>> the essentially not just with obtaining
per permit or doing a project but
what are the differences you feel that
the regional challenges
>> and opportunity too.
>>..
>> Yeah. I think there there is a
interest a high interest in new
technologies.
thinking on the district heating
systems the existing ones with old
installations.
they're seeking for new technologies.
So let's say not new invented
technologies but for them new to be
installed. So to be replaced
this is this is something what what I
figured out in Eastern Europe.
they know the technologies as I said
there is no need to teach them
something in that sense they know
this very very good but it's it's
difficult for them to implement because
coming from
the population they need to pay for the
energy and they pay less because the
interests of the government the local
government there is to provide cheap
energy to the population
So
there with a cheap energy they cannot do
that big investments.
So when I would sum up it's a big
structural change would need to happen.
So to in to allow the increase of the
population's
contribution to the energy system so
that they need to pay a bit more
>> so that investments can be taken from
the operators of the district
heating systems
>> to replace to renew to install new
technologies even renewable technologies
>> and then to contribute here to the to
the reduction of energy. Yeah, there was
a discussion in the event that that we
went in Amsterdam about
somebody has to pay the
>> the bill
>> the bill the energy transition
investment. So
>> how to do it in collaboration with
government? How can the investment
assure certain period of return of
investment
some certain energy price? So this is
a we will say that a current discussion
that who is going to pay the energy
transition investment.
>>.
>> Right.
>> Yeah. Right. And I think we should pay
it now in small portions by higher
energy prices
>> many years
>> then to pay the future damages
what we have on the nature.
>> Exactly.
>> That's all. we have flats, we have
storms etc.
>> and I think now to increase the price
a bit to change to make the energy
transition possible. I think it's the
better way then have cheap energy and
then finally have to invest a lot in
>> recovering from from the damages.
>> Where are you on nuclear
nuclear energy? Austria we
know where it stands but you got
to work a lot in Hungary and Romania as
well and they have slightly different
opinion and Romania still has a lot of
functional nuclear
>> plants. Right.
>> Right. Right. And I think also Croatia
has a share in the in another
neighbors neighbors plan. But however I
I personally did not follow honestly the
the nuclear the nuclear issue. I have a
personal opinion and let's say if if you
are just looking into CO2 neutrality
then okay yeah it's not in polluting
CO2.
>>. if you are saying okay for
the renew your renewable energy and the
energy transition pass you need a lot of
power and okay with one nuclear power
plant you can inject a lot of electrical
power okay would also be a benefit but
we know all all the
danger is going going in parallel and
the real costs so I think the
costs of it. because normally
this energy is subsidized or the
investment is subsidized to reach out
the cheap energy and if you have real
costs it's not comparable is much higher
than the renewable energy.
>> Yeah. And maybe not going too deep but
it's also something about energy
independency right geopolitically also
where do you get the material from right
too many
>> factors that it makes
Thank thank you that you mention this
the energy neutrality because yeah you
can
say you are believing in climate change
or not but I can say it I feel the
climate change if we are if this is
belonging to CO2 emission I cannot
say I'm not the expert in
>> are like
>> the graphs are in that in that direction
experts the science says
>> yeah but we were in the middle of
very interesting thought about
>> energy neutrality energy independence
>> energy independence
politically so you were going
>> yeah I was I was starting to say that
even if you're not believing in the
in the climate change
>> then I always say into my lectures we
should do renewable energy to be energy
independent
>> that's the
>> because with everything and also coming
back to my project. I try to be
energy independent, produce my energy,
not to be depending on the others
on probably fossile energy producers
which are connecting we need to need
to produce the electricity because
nothing else is available currently.
yeah so to be independent should be our
driver
>> and we see
the energy prices and the war
what causes the high energy prices we
are depending on fossil energy supply.
We in Austria are not producing that
much fossil energy, not not the gas, not
the petrol that much. We have some very
small resources but not that much. The
big one we need to import and this
should be our driver to go into the
direction of renewables. If we are not
believing climate change is a good thing
a good thing to work against.
>> Yeah. Well, actually in Vienna this
winter, I don't remember one snow maybe,
but no no no day with a strong strong
snow, right? When when I came here,
people told me, "Yeah, but it's very
cold city where you're going to have a
snow, but the last winter it was
>> you did not find it."
>> No, no, no. You wanted to ski in Vienna,
but fortunately, no. No ski. No, but
it's interesting that it's whether
you believe in climate change or not, it
it's happening.
>> It's a hope.
>> So, yeah.
>> So, yeah. No but we're just asking
you about like I think what we are
trying to also do is uncover
complexities of this region in
terms of energy transition about energy
ecosystem energy system what's what's
exactly happening me living in
in Netherlands for last 5 years and
a I got to know a lot about the western
ecosystem because they the all the
projects that they are doing they're
really in the media you have a lot
of knack of what's happening in the in
the system but I feel this region
lacks a bit of transparency what is
happening exactly unless you really
go deeper into it and start
going into the local media a lot of
projects are not uncovering that what
can really happen there and how Can
it be coherent with the other system?
Like for example, you have advanced
ecosystem in let's call Scandinavia
being the most advanced ecosystem for
energy transition.
>> but you can't cannot have the same
projects going on in Scandinavia and
have something similar going on in
Romania or Hungary. So what do you see
how how do you b how do we balance that
at first so that their challenges are
also get it get the attention that it
really seeks.
Oh yeah. I think when you s when you say
advanced ecosystem, it's it's the total
it's the first understanding of the
population, the
connection to nature, the connection to
resources. I think it's it's a
development which the Scandian countries
met through already. we are on our
way and in Eastern Europe
this is in development still. So to have
a connection to that that this has a
value and need to take care own
responsibility for that.
>>.
>> because they came out of a an area
where somebody else took care of
everything. now they need to take
care about themselves and be responsible
for that. And I think my personal
opinion is that this needs to be
developed more. But I think this is a
matter of generation this self-
responsibility
>> and also it's an advant advantage as
well for the region because a lot has
not been done so they can learn and do
it better.
>> Yeah. If if they if they see an
advantage in doing it better.
>> Yeah. If they see it worked well in the
past years I had my home heated and
where the heat is coming from I don't
care then nothing will change but if
they will say okay I have own
responsibility to that and how where I'm
connected what I'm doing how much
energy I consume then I think we all
will here do something and I
would not say that it's just a thing in
in Eastern Europe I think everybody of
us here as well in Vienna in Austria
need more more responsibility self-
responsibility about what we are doing
what we are doing to our nature and how
we consume the energy what for we
consume
>> deep message I like it
>> yeah very well said and you think
like the innovation and the research
that is going on it should have some
original
weightage in it. So what I basically
means that when we say advanced
ecosystem it also means that why they
are advanced is because the
collaboration between the academy
industry and research organization is
way more coherent than
>> than ecosystems which are not that
advanced. So I believe you think that
there needs to be a bit more cooperation
between academia industry and the
research organization in this region
at a whole as well like for the whole
energy ecosystem.
>>. I think yeah the exchange of
of it would be a benefit
the exchange and the understanding of
each other
>> would be would be one thing because
we cannot do improvements in the nature
in the environment
give some obligations to the
industry to improve something when we
are not listening to the industry and
their demands. What do they do have?
>> We have now we are not in best
economic situations now in Austria.
and on the other hand said we
need to do something for the environment
but doing for the environment would
probably has a negative impact to the
industry which will not then gives an
economic impulse. So I think this need
to go hand in hand and both and also
industry need to have more understanding
that they need to do something but this
need to be balanced because otherwise
it's always a fight fight some this
prevails the industry prevails other one
the environmental issues
are prevailing. So this must be a
handinhand approach. both need to
have understanding for the other side
and that we are going forward.
>> We need to understand that we have to do
something. We have to adapt something
and but this must be in the balance
between industry and also the
environment but also the households
should be involved in this
>> consumers.
Correct. The consumers and consumers
because we had a big dis discussion
about
that people cannot cannot afford to heat
their homes. This also should not be
should not be the case. We should also
take care about this kind of
population who are suffering and
having problems to heat because this
should be a basic a basic need
which should be covered and so we as the
society has the obligation to take
also care on that group..
>> so that also here we do something for
the environment would mean some
investment would mean some increase of
costs on the consumer side but we should
not forget the people who cannot afford
these higher prices so that we also have
this this in mind and industry and
environment should go hand in hand not
against each other.
>> That's only to highlight two concept
that you have mentioned that it's
fantastic. It's a just transition like
to not forget the people that cannot
afford when the prices are high and the
other that it's something is a concept
that is powering us now in this project.
It's
energy transition will be possible only
if we work all together and aligned with
the information on the table. the
science backing us up backing us up
and yeah so alto together I think it's a
very good message
>> yeah that's that's our our way
of with the energy bridge what we are
trying to bridge it essentially all the
loss of energy transition it could be
policy makers it could be academia
industry just bringing them all together
and talk more
>> and be a bit more transparent with each
other because what we have noticed
that
>> what we have noticed is that yeah
like the platform that they are coming
together there's still gap between
transparency and I think there there
definitely a bit more need for
collaboration and they cannot wait to
for another conference or another I
don't know like another meeting to
collect collaborate they need a constant
touch with each other
>> and there's a need to establish touch
>> so that's where we come in and that's
what we aspire to do we are a
long way away from that and we are for
now like we're just trying to understand
that but we do see the transparency gap
and we would like to bridge that how do
you see as a concept what we are
envisioning
>> yeah you see what what should I say
perfect this does perfect match to that
what's currently needed to foster the
the energy transition to bridge to make
a bridge between different parties
different interests and to give more
let's say also more more knowhow in that
sense of understanding not so not not so
technical knowhow but more openness to
create the openness to all them and
bring them together to exchange to
exchange the experience and yeah then
Well, thank you. I appreciate it.
>> And just closing out argument, Alex,
like how do you see the future of
energy sector? and also like what
kind of advice that you would go give
the young professionals
now that who enter like how do you see
it changing for if we talk about the
professional side of it for the work
side of it? what kind of job, what kind
of skills that people should have.
>>
yeah, the skills I think should should
have a basic a basic education in
energy and understanding of the
energy itself and then it depends on the
interest interests of everybody who
would like to go in a certain direction
and we have a broad field of we
tackled the wind power. So we increased
wind turbine sizes on the market
every year. You can always develop more
here or hydrochain or also these other
energy are carriers around that.
So that I think we need all of the punch
what we have here now in renewable
energy to well supply the
demand which we have in the future.
>> Okay. So, so there are different fields
you can go in. I think the most
important thing is that talking about
it and talking with your neighbors
explaining what you are doing and
and then they start to think about
this and find then then they find their
ways to adapt according to their needs
and also to their possibilities what
they what they can do.
>>. in on because I really like it
what what you're talking about the
citizen engagement in the energy
transition. Do you do you have any
recommendation for policy makers in
this especially in central and
eastern Europe how they can make those
people like even I don't want to go
too deep into how much of the solar PB
that people are installing there but the
number is in very stark contrast to some
of the let's say if the if you see in
Netherlands or in Scandinavia because
there subsidies first of all but if the
citizen will demand there will be
subsidies did well in those country too
to how what do you think like could be
some recommendation for policy makers?
>>.
Yeah. thinking on that h how we
develop in our production and we talked
about what what we did achieve in
the different in the different areas.
and we see that the big on also from my
professional experience I see the big
projects
are lasting long.
and taking a lot of power and let's say
you cannot be sure if you are successful
at the final end with big projects.
>> So the smaller ones are easier to be
realized
and coming back to own responsibility
and maybe we are also responsibility to
produce that what we consume. Yeah.
>> and to policy makers, yeah, it could
be made a bit easier for the population
to invest to take investments because
the initial investment is really
huge. What you need to take for PV for
inverters and all the equipment you
have, you need to have an electrician
who gives you the final
certificate, the check of it at the
at the at the end. So this a lot of a
lot of costs you have to carry and it
would be great if the government
would foster that would support this on
their end. that everybody can take
his own responsibility and invest
>> invest his own money and do a
small piece and if we do all a small
piece we get also a huge one in total.
>> Yeah there is a
Chilean
poet which have this verse which is a
small small people in different parts
doing small things can change the world
>> so maybe it can be
>> right this is
>> good good word here is here
>> so on that note for the change in the
world thank you thank you Alex for
giving us the time I think it's been
very very insightful and I think
we'll be sitting sometime very soon
again.
>> Thank you. Thank you.
>> Thank you for this invitation. It was a
great pleasure sitting here talking
to you exchanging with you the different
insights.
>> Thank you.
>> Thank you very much. Thank you Alex.
>> Thank you. Thank you.
>> Thank you.

PV & Heating Project Development, Permitting in CEE with Alexander Fischer - TEB Podcast S1E4

Community engagement is crucial

Investment costs are significant

Focus on small-scale projects

Energy independence drives transition