S1E17

Wind Energy 2030: Deconstructing Permitting & Grid with Florian Maringer, @igwindkraft | S1E17

with Florian Maringer· Austrian Wind Energy Association· 58m

TL;DR

Austria aims for 20-25% wind energy by 2030, but permitting, high grid fees, and political instability hinder rapid deployment.

Synopsis

Florian Maringer, Managing Director of the Austrian Wind Energy Association, discusses the critical role of wind energy in Austria's transition to carbon neutrality. He highlights that wind and PV are becoming the new hydropower, with wind projected to supply 20-25% of Austria's electricity by 2030, up from the current 15-16%. The main barriers to achieving these targets are lengthy permitting processes (averaging 7 years), high grid connection fees (10% of CAPEX), and a lack of legal certainty due to erratic policymaking. Maringer emphasizes the need for zoning, increased staffing in authorities, and a more strategic approach to grid flexibility, including leveraging wind turbines for synthetic inertia.

Key metrics

by the numbers · 8

15-16%
Current Austrian wind share
20-25%
2030 Austrian wind target
4,200 MW
Installed wind capacity in Austria
1,200 MW
Ready-to-build wind capacity
7 years
Average Austrian permitting time
3-4 years
German permitting time
10%
Grid fees share of CAPEX
80%
Public support for wind energy

Topics

8 tags

Permitting reformGrid feesLegal certaintyMarket liberalizationFlexibility servicesStakeholder engagementWind potentialSupply chain

Stats

Duration: 58m
Words: 8.6k
Questions: 37

Timeline

10 chapters

Guest Introduction
Florian Maringer introduces himself as the managing director of the Austrian Wind Energy Association, sharing his journey from delivering coal as a child to co-founding a pro-wind citizen movement.
IG Windkraft's Evolving Role
Maringer explains the shift from traditional lobbying to advocacy, focusing on preparing documents and guidance for policymakers, and promoting transparent communication with stakeholders.
Wind Energy's Role in Austria
Discussion on wind energy's role as a new 'workhorse' alongside PV, complementing hydropower, aiming for 20-25% of the energy mix by 2030 from the current 15-16%.
Permitting Process Challenges
Maringer details the average 7-year permitting time in Austria, contrasting it with Germany's 3-4 years, and proposes solutions like zoning, legal framework updates, and increased staffing in authorities.
Regional Permitting Differences
The impact of Austria's nine federal states having different legislations on permitting is discussed, noting that experienced regions like Lower Austria and Burgenland have smoother processes.
New Austrian Electricity Law
Maringer provides insights into the recently approved electricity law, highlighting its positive aspects like market liberalization, digitalization, and support for energy communities, but also its flaws regarding grid fees.
Grid Flexibility and Inertia
The need for rapid development of flexibility in the energy system is discussed, including synthetic inertia from storage and wind turbines, and the importance of opening this discussion beyond TSOs to DSOs.
Central & Eastern Europe Potential
Maringer attributes the lack of wind development in neighboring countries with similar resources to political power dynamics and strong incumbents, advocating for market liberalization and competition.
Wind Industry Manufacturing & Supply Chain
Discussion on Europe's historical strength in wind energy manufacturing, the role of component manufacturers in Austria, and the need for the EU to view the energy sector as an industry to compete globally.
Future of Wind Energy
Maringer emphasizes that the next frontier for wind energy is regaining political stability and security, as the energy transition relies on trust in institutions rather than disruptive new technologies.

Key insights

5 takeaways

01
Permitting Reform is Critical for Speed
Austria's average 7-year permitting process for wind projects significantly delays deployment. Germany's progress to 3-4 years demonstrates that zoning, streamlined legal frameworks, and increased staffing in authorities are effective solutions to accelerate project timelines.
02
Legal Certainty Derisks Investment
Unpredictable policy changes and the potential for annual alterations to grid fees create high legal risk, increasing the cost of debt financing for projects. Stable, long-term regulatory frameworks are essential to attract investment and reduce energy transition costs.
03
High Grid Fees Impede Wind Deployment
Austria has the second-highest grid fees in Europe, with connection costs representing 10% of a wind turbine's CAPEX. These fees disproportionately affect privately owned projects and increase overall energy consumption costs, hindering competitiveness.
04
Flexibility Requires Strategic, Open Approach
The energy system needs a rapid ramp-up of flexibility, including synthetic inertia from storage and wind turbines. The discussion around technical rules and market development for flexibility must be broadened beyond TSOs to include DSOs and be actively pushed by regulators.
05
Energy Policy Must See Renewables as Industry
The European Union's tendency to view the energy sector solely as an energy producer, rather than an industry, neglects the importance of closing the supply chain loop and promoting domestic manufacturing. This oversight risks Europe's competitiveness against global players like China.

Pull quotes

4 quotes

Because security is derisking.
Florian Maringer
We tend to we tend to be very negative on discussions but I think discussions are good.
Florian Maringer
There I have to say that we have the second largest highest grid fees in Austria in all over Europe.
Florian Maringer
80% of the whole energy transition is financed through depth and if you make depth more expensive the whole energy transition gets more expensive just because of the risk premium premiums
Florian Maringer

Transcript1383 cuesClick a timestamp to jump

Welcome to a new episode of the energy
bridge. Today we have Florian Maringer.
Today we're going to explore the wind
power generation. you are also part
of wind association and we have you
here like a wind energy policy maker and
market accelerator as a how do you like?
>> It's nice.
>> It's nice. Yeah. So, welcome., hi.
>> Welcome, Florian. You agree with your
introduction?
>> I take it.
>> You take it. Okay. Well, we let you
introduce yourself. Please tell us about
yourself and, a bit about your
journey.
>> yeah, my name is Floren Maringa. I'm
the managing director of the Austrian
Wind Energy Association.
My journey., I
>> Yeah. how you came up with the energy
sector from the school like what you
studied interest.
>> Okay. I think the fun thing is my
first touch with energy was I my my
father was among other things he was he
was a coal merchant.
So he traded coal and one of my first
experiences was delivering coal with
my father.
>> Wow. It was my first touch with
seven I think six or seven years with
with coal as yeah energy. So I might be
the last person in Austria delivering
coal to people for heating and stuff.
>> Wow.
>> For houses.
>> For houses. Wow.
>> Yeah. I'm that old.
>> But it's but no to be serious. I think
the I started the whole thing the
energy thing I think 16 or 17 years
ago in my in my hometown when people
there was a was a community
or citizens movement. we started
building some energy around
passive household
tikes bike lanes and stuff like that.
And one of the projects was a wind park.
>> And then I f was co-founder of one I
think one of the first pro- wind citizen
movements in Austria in my hometown.
And this led me through to the wind
energy association.
>> okay.
>> So I go
>> where where was your hometown?
>> Near Vienna. Near Vienna. Small town
4, 500
citizens or so. and but there was a
potential for don't know 20 24 wind
turbines or so in the region. So quite
nice
>> then I started I started in the wind
energy association as an expert for
energy policy.
and after that I was managing
director of the Austrian renewable
energy association. So for all
renewables
>> and I think that was the path to the
ministry.
I was then senior adviser for the
minister for climate action Austria and
after that I started together with two
colleagues one of the first Austrian
climate institutes context
and at that time I was also asked if I
want to be the managing director of the
Austrian wind association and then I
started the job I have at the moment
so it was a full circle let's say 180°
>> I don't think that I'm delivering
coal again So it was not really 300 360°
but nearly.
>> But you are delivering energy.
>> Energy. Yeah. So yeah, basically it's
360
but clean.
>> But clean. Yeah.
>> But you crossed the bridge.
>> Yeah, I crossed the bridge. Yeah. On the
on the bright side. when we when we get
into associations and wind association
solar association what what is the
current role for IG windcraft that
it's that the role of the association
as a whole and for IG windcraft and your
role in it
>> I think
we are trying to shift the focus
stronger because the oldfashioned way of
doing yeah lobbying let's say
trying to push policy makers to make the
right decisions to make to be more
progressive and stuff like that and I
don't think that this is a future proof
concept so we try to do more advocacy
more groundwork like preparing documents
and studies and guidance for policy
makers what has to be done and what can
be done it's not pushing for 180% but
pushing for 100%.
and doing this advocacy
is
I think it's very important. but it's
not very common at least in Austria. So
in Austria we have an let's say I don't
think that we have a good democratic
culture of discussion. So usually
discussion is seen as very hostile in my
opinion and I think that's wrong because
discussion is very important and we have
to discuss more and we have to make have
to have I think more conflict
>> but like being more respectful in the
conflict we have different opinions and
that but you don't have to be in the
trenches
>> fighting against each other but having a
conflict is I think it's neutral.
>> Yeah. I heard this quote of someone
smart in the past that say the goal of a
discussion it wouldn't be to defeat your
enemy but progress.
>> Yeah, that's the that's the whole point
is very good. Yeah.
>> Yeah, you can take it if
>> Yeah, I think of course I take it.
>> Yeah. So with all the lobby that you
do and discussion and promoting
renewables what is the role of wind
energy in energy transition and to
reach the goal of being carbon
neutral for 2030 of or 40
>> I think
the role of wind energy you can see you
can see it in the charts if you
if you
if you go fast forward forward 2040 or
so you can see that the electricity mix
in Austria is could be could be
>> I would say is let's say 50%
hydropower and 50% PV and wind
energy. So wind energy PV together are
the new hydropower and I think in the
whole thing of course hydropower is the
workhor workhorse and storage part
but the new workhorse is of course
wind energy and that's the role
because when we have the we have two
three three and a half thousand full
watt hours that's quite nice in the
energy system. So wind energy is the
workhorse of this let's say 25 to 30
maybe 40% of the energy mix we will see
the potential is quite high. if
we if we use 2% of our land we can
produce as much electricity as we
consume at the moment a little bit more
at least
>> 2% of the
>> 2% of the whole land. So it's not very
much., of course it's hypothetic.
>> Don't be afraid. But it's it's
>> a nice a nice relation that you can you
can see that you don't need much to
produce a lot of energy.
>>.
>> And if you could also tell us about
the wind energy in the energy mix of
Austria. What is the current?
>> Yeah. At the moment we are at around
let's say 15 to 16% of the whole energy
production is coming from wind.
>> Mh.
>> And
as a rule of thumb we say that we can
achieve 20 to 25% until 2030.
At the moment we have around
4, 200
megawatt installed and 2 thou 1, 200
megawatt ready to build theoretically.
So it's yeah it's a lot but in order
to get that it's the long way of
putting the connection day of a
project plan it takes a lot from the
>> raification so there is this need of
electrify to electrify more
install more renewables
>> but then is the like the speed trap
>> right like we need to speed up
>> to install soon But there is this
developing part to get the permit. We
heard about this project that took 13
years for being energy for example.
>> how do you see the permit process
and how it
>> it could be improved or accelerated?
>> yeah that's a pain point.
I think the let's say average on
average you need seven years from from
start of a project the administr the
administrative process to the end when
the turbine is installed and 7 years is
a long time yeah there are the outlaw
with 12 years 13 years they exist on
average it's 7 years and Germany
in the last governmental periods,
Germany achieved a lot of progress.
They have the whole time. I think they
they are now
they're now ready after 3 years, four
years or so. Wow.
>> Quite fast.
>> And what they did was first they made a
law where they said all federal
states have to
do some zoning. So there have to be
zones where the where permitting is
faster
>> and then they speed up speeded up as
well the whole legal framework
>> and of course they staff the authorities
because we always discuss about yeah
changing the legal framework, adapting
the some laws and stuff like that.
But at the end what you need for the
whole thing is you need more people as
well in the in the authorities in the
bureaucracy because if that the file of
paper is getting larger you need people
>> to work on that.
>> So we need zoning in Austria as well.
there's not enough pro progress at the
moment but we need more zoning more
security. Soning means security for
everybody not just for the investors but
also for the people and also for the
industry and the grid operators.
Everybody knows then where it would be
possible where you can build where you
can't build and the clarity is much
higher and this makes everything cheaper
because security is derisking.
then of course you need the laws and
we're waiting for the respective laws.
and of course also for the
discussions about the laws because you
need a lot of insight in how the whole
permitting goes and how yeah how the
how it works how the machinery works
>> and there have to be more discussion. We
don't have the discussions at the moment
and that's that's really a problem. And
then as I said and this has this step
has not to wait for laws but you have to
be very careful that you need the people
at the authorities at the courts to
to be faster to have more people working
on this whole building project
>> and I don't know why they are waiting
for that. You can do it at any moment
every time.
>> And if you could just walk us through a
standard
>> project, what kind of permitting
process that a project would have to go
through? What kind of nodes that exist
right now? So you said let's say
there's a new project coming up.
>> if they come to IG Wincraft, they
does it help them to make the process
seamless and how do you help them?
the one thing we do is we
bring together all stakeholders.
So we try to connect them that
they can
they can exchange their experiences and
learn from each other. The other thing
is that we try to go out to the
permitting authorities
to give them feedback what they can
promote and what is a problem
and we try to streamline the yeah nearly
everything. So we try to gather all
the people working on that streamline
the guidances documents they prepare
the studies and stuff like they have
to prepare for the permitting
so that everything is yeah more
fluent and the other thing is we do
heavily is communicating because I in my
view in the end everything is
communication so we try to do more
communication transparent And there's
nothing there's no hidden agenda,
nothing. We try to be extremely
transparent. We try to be very very
pushy in distributing all information
needed. What we see is at the moment
for example that more than let's say
80% of the people are pro wind energy.
>>.
>> But 70% of the people if you ask them
what they need most they all say
information. So we try to fulfill this
this need
>> 70
>> 70%. Yeah.
>> Wow.
>> So it's it's nice because people are
proy and they say yeah but I need I need
information. I want more information. I
want to know about that. I have
questions. That's nice. So that's what
our main task is in my view
communication.
>> And you mentioned that the current
current percentage is about 15 and it
could actually increase up to 25%.
that's almost doubled that in the
next five to six years that has to be
done.
>> How many of the projects that new
projects that are coming up that you see
in Austria currently?
>> at the moment we have 1, 200 megawatt
nearly ready to build.
>>.
>> In different stages, but nearly ready to
build in the next let's say three three
years. and this will lead to around
20% or so.
>> Okay. So we can there's it's not far
away the 25% we can see we can see
it on the horizon.
>> And how do you think that influ
influence
that Austria has nine regions and every
region has their own
>> legislation? So how is the permitting
process having
nine different frameworks?
>> Difficult.
>> Yeah. How do you address it?
>> Yeah. challenging, not difficult.
Challenging. Everything is a challenge,
not not a problem., yeah., it
I think it's
standard sentence.
It's doesn't make it easier. Yeah.
At the moment, there is some kind of
streamlining coming from the European
Union with the renewable energy
directive where it says the federal
states have to do some zoning. Some
federal states already have a zoning by
law. They should also pass various
various laws where the where the
accelerate their permitting process. I'm
not sure if they all are doing it. If
they find ways other ways to
accelerate it, it's fine for me. But by
law they should they should put in
place some kind of legislative framework
with zoning which accelerates heavily
u the renewable energy directive calls
them. Yeah, at the moment we see
activity in all nine states. Of course
in different let's say stages like
there are major markets like lower
Austria, Burgundy Sisteria they have
wind power they have a lot of experience
the people there the
administrative body has experience
knows what what is wind and what is not
>> easier is a bit easier
>> that's easier that's easier and you can
people know it already they know what
they can ask and what they get and what
is not necessary and in other federal
they have to learn It's
>> of course because they don't have the
experience. They don't know what is a
wind turbine, what is a diff how
different wind turbines work. So they
have to learn everything newly and
that's yeah it doesn't make it easier.
But when we talk to the civil
servants, we see that they a lot of them
are very progressive and very
progressive energy transition mindset.
That's fine.
And do you see in out of all the nine
provinces any province which can set
best practice examples?
I think the interesting thing is of
course then the whole federal
state thing is not really accelerating
anything.
>> But on the other side they all have
examples what went good or bad. So in
the end everything could learn from from
each other at least. in Turo for
example there is no wind turbine.
>>.
>> But they did some things recently in
their energy laws which can be very
accelerated accelerative for the
permitting process. That's nice. So
other federal states could learn from
that. On the other side of course like
lower Austria Bunga and Austria they
have a lot of experience in zoning.
how to do zoning what test
what are the things you have to be
careful about and what is not that
important. For example, of course,
there's always an issue with birds
>> and but not with all birds. So, if you
have experience which birds are
sensitive and which are not, it's much
easier. But if you start from scratch
and you think you have to watch for all
birds might be difficult. It's a very
easy example, but it's like that. And
are there just like a curiosity question
but are there some NOS's as well that
has to be taken permission from or like
maybe land activist or climate
activist that you
>> usually wind usually wind energy
projects are very communicative
>> so
I'm not sure why it is like that but I
don't know any infrastructure project
with so strong ties to communications
and stakeholder invol involvement. I
don't know any
maybe it's because it's a landmark,
it's it's it's a
landmark period. So of course people are
discussing about it. You can see it from
everywhere and so by definition
something you can discuss about maybe
that's the reason. I think that's the
reason. so usually stakeholders
are all stakeholders are involved. There
are a lot of discussions and as I said
before discussion is not the for me
discussion is good.
>> We tend to we tend to be very negative
on discussions but I think discussions
are good. Usually we and my members
talk with everybody and try to find ways
with all stakeholders to find a
progressive way into the future
depending on who's active in the
respective region.
>>. And you mentioned before the change
of law. So we got into the topic that
recently it was approved a new law here
in Austria about the electricity law
that you call it. you were part of
the discussions. So we are very grateful
to have you here with a fresh
impression. So if you could share
with us
>> what is this law about? What are the
main changes and how do you see it for
the future? M
yeah the basic
idea from the law the electricity law
is very good and I think let's say
80% of the whole law are good
of course it's always a long pro process
because it's very complex
>> and the whole liberal
liberalization of the energy market led
to
a very large ecosystem of different
stakeholders with very different views.
>> More competition.
>> More competition. Yeah. More
competition. Yeah. And of course
old ties and of course power
is not as
let's say
unequal
distributed anymore.
>> Okay.
>> So the whole the whole law does more
equal distribution through the
stakeholders. So for example there is
it's not like 10 years ago all the major
power in the energy system came from the
grid operators.
>>.
>> So they lost a lot of power a lot of
it got more transparent. It gets more
transparent because there is more more
information in the market. You have more
access and more rights to get the to get
>> data and information. And that's for me
very important because it's like it's
this legal security we need
and so it's breaking up silos in general
more digitalization more rights to
different for different stakeholders new
stakeholders like active customers
which are hybrid role
something between energy producer
energy trader and consumer
>> so more right for energy
communities is so in my view it's it's a
good step of course there were some what
there are some problems as well and this
is more political there is no I
I would say there is there is no
evidence-based
reason for that except
different views of different
stakeholders who were in the end
powerful there was a hard fight
around grid fees additional grid fees
in Austria
>> and what was the outcome of the
discussion with the fees?
>> the outcome was a very Austrian
outcome. We have a term which is called
Austrian solution.
>> Okay.
>> in the end the whole discussion was
about was about additional grid fees
and there I have to say that we have the
second largest highest grid fees in
Austria in all over Europe.
>>.
>> And at least or not at least but around
10% of the whole investment of a wind
turbine is for grid fees. 10% that's
yeah pretty much
>> in the opex period
>> capex
>> in the capex
>> capex yeah 10% of capex
>> at the beginning
>> yeah at the beginning yeah at the
beginning and if you discount the whole
opex there is opex part as well and if
you discount it around 10% of the whole
investment is ish for the grid
>> so there is already operating fee but
also a capex fee
>> like
>> for the grid access
>> for the connection
>> for the connection yeah
let's say it's also So somehow unique
but in the end around 10% is already at
the fee and now they wanted to
increase it and there is I think
there is a consensus in the u a
scientific body that it makes no sense
putting more fees on the energy
production but because in the end makes
the energy consumption more expensive
>> and less competitive and less in the
industry.
>> Exactly. And it's also a problem for
let's say for the whole competition in
energy production sector because of
course if you're publicly owned it's
that impact is not that large on your
finance finance line that if then
other than if you're privately owned or
if you're for example
>> there's a different different structure
of how you finance projects and yeah
it's very disruptive and this is why we
opposed it very much and in the end
the problem was that the grid fee should
have been done by their regulator and
could have been changed fundamentally
each and every year also for the
existing plants and that would be very
harmful for the whole investment
stream let so to say because everything
is 80% of the whole energy
transition is financed through depth and
if you make depth more expensive the
whole energy transition gets more
expensive just because of the risk
premium premiums and the risk premiums,
they are for nothing because the
banks needed a higher risk premium
because there is a legal system they are
in and they need, a certain
risk they calculated in. And it makes no
sense because it makes no energy
transition. It's just it's just lost
money. And in the end the outcome was
that we or they agreed on a on a we
call an infrastructure contribution.
Yeah. It's it's a contribution in the
in the law which is set by a two/3
majority in the parliament
which brings at least more security for
the for the investors because a two/3s
majority is not that easy. It can't be
changed annually.
It's a problem but a less disruptive
problem
>> and you still have to suggest some
minor adjustment to the law.
>> At the moment we don't have any
suggestions to change the law.
now we have
>> done
>> not
>> it's finished. It's done. Yeah it's
done. At the moment it's done. of
course after the law is before the law.
So of course we will get we will get the
new law. Maybe there are they
have to implement some European
regulation so they have to make it up
again and
we will see it in one or two years again
>> and comparing that the laws with the
let's say with Germany what is how do
you compare that with Germany what is
the situation over there
>> that's difficult to compare
there Germany has more than one law we
have one law which concentrates a lot of
different things in one legal body.
Germany has two or three laws which make
more or less the same. To be honest, I
think on the part of
liberalization, digitalization,
new market actors, it's more progressive
than than Germany. for example,
energy communities, it's I think in
Austria, we have the most progressive
one of the most progressive systems
in all over Europe. That's very good in
other terms like as I said in grid
access and the grid fees we are far
behind Germany
>> because the whole discussion is not very
evidence-based it's very yeah
incumbent based
>> so what would be your balance with the
new
electricity law because it's nothing
is 100% house we want right but in
the balance is it better or or
>> Yeah, it's good..
>> So, it's something that you mentioned
that I think is super important to
highlight also for the community. It's
the importance of legal certainty to
>> derisk the investment for project
finances and attract more projects
more investment. So this is something
that we are doing here to
>> to communicate more and give more
information to the risk. So the interest
rates are lower so the
>> depth is cheaper and yeah so super
good. And now regarding the
technical
part of the operation of a electric
matrix with intermittent energy wind
energy is intermittent. So how do you
see that the DSOS manage this inter
intermittent
and if there are some solutions like
inertia or storage how do you see the
>> the flexible part of the from the
generation side to the operation of the
system?
>> I think at the moment
we have to ramp up rapidly the
discussion about flexibility in the
energy system.
let's say we forgot about that in the
last in the last years in all in Europe.
>>. I think there is like there are
some stakeholders like the various
institutions also the commission is
talking a little bit about that but we
need a more I think we need a more
emphasized and strategic approach to
ramp up flexibility and flexibility
doesn't mean just market flexibility
like short-term markets
>> and for example the markets on a
good way like 15 minutes trading is yeah
it's state-of-the-art fine fine for them
>> and fine and the market signals are
working fine. that's good. We see
some progress on digitalization because
in the end you need you need you need
the right signals and you need not just
the right market signals but also the
right distribution channels to
work with those signals. So the
utilization is key for that. but
the problem at the moment is I think
the rules the technical rules have to
ramp up rapidly and there is I would say
I would say there is some kind of sealo
so if there's silo the main mainly
the whole thing is mainly done at
the moment by APG in Austria quite nice
we have good discussions with them they
are very experienced but I think the
discussion has to be opened and has to
be pushed more by the regulator for
example because as you said I see the
future is synthetic inertia storage
battery systems which can deliver
inertia but also wind turbines which can
deliver inertia and not just on the TSO
level but also on the DSO level
>> really how does it work the inertia in
wind power plants like
>> I'm not I'm not an engineer but then I
can send you the papers but there are
there are like there are some turban
operators which have already done I
10 years ago or so some projects on
that. So they are they are this is
possible to deliver inertia through wind
turbines.
>> Wow.
>> I'm not sure if it's possible possible
through photos but I know it from
from wind power.
>> No but it makes sense with turbine.
That's why I it would be interesting to
know more if someone that we
could invite to ask. Yeah would be
great.
>> Yeah of course of course of course.
as I said I'm not not an engineer
so I can explain how it's working but it
it works and it can be done. So we
need more discussions on that and
somebody has to take the stick and in
my view it's the regulator who should
push the market forward
>> and that's not happening at the moment
that fast as I would wish and there's
a more has to be a more let's say public
discussion at the moment APG is the
owner of the whole it's it's not like
completely I'm a little bit ex
exaggerating
>> as I usually
But I would say I would say a bit G
is at the moment the owner of the whole
market development and that that's
fine for them and I like them but it
should be a little bit more open and
more
>> transparent and in my view as the whole
energy transition is happening on the
DSO level DSOs are heavily heavily in
charge of
promoting more market on their level as
Well, so we know the markets on the
TSO level at the moment like as I said
inertia and stuff like that.
>>.
>> but the same discussion has to be
has to be done on the DSO level and it's
not happening at the moment.
>> And just how often do you meet some DSO
or have a conversation with them?
>> I would say few few times per month.
>> Okay. So yeah, there are lots of
discussions
>> and yeah. No, I well, you mentioned
that in Austria you have a huge wind
potential
>> and we went to Slovakia recently to
Slovakia to
>> to Bratislava
and you can see the windmills from there
>> but is Austria and they have the same
resource
>> but they don't have so
what would you say that it could
enable more projects in central and
eastern Europe starting with the
neighbors country with the same
potential. But
>> liberalization
so I deeply believe in markets
>> liberalization because it also
disrupts power.
>>.
>> Because as you said there is no
reason why why wind should stop at the
border.
>> Exactly.
>>
>> but it's super clear that
>> Yeah. It's super clear.
>> Super clear. You can see it on all
images, satellite images and stuff. It's
crazy.
>> Yeah, it's it's it's a question
of power.
>>.
>> in the society in the political
system. So if you in my
>> human power, not electrical power.
>> Yeah, of course. Of course, of course.
Political power.
>> and
>> and if you have incumbents which are
very strong, everything moves as fast as
they are moving. And if if they don't
have pressure, they don't move. Why
should they?
>> Okay. So, it's not a society movement to
push renewables or it should be bottom
up instead.
>> I think both. I of course bottom up. But
there has to be a political framework
which allows
a fruitful development of
other market players and there should be
the regulatory and legal framework to
allow a market. So you need a
competition
>> and if you have a strong incumbent which
sees no need to change usually
competition is speeding up their
attitude to progressivity.
>> Yeah. Actually for our next forum that
we are designing today we are in
December 18th but the forum it's in June
next next year
>> second and third. So save the date.
>> Yeah everyone. so something that we
were advised to do because we had a
meeting with a bank and they proposed
to show successful business cases
>> and that could enable and derisk the
region because it's it's also a
business. It's not only to clean the
matrix to reduce carbon emissions but
it's also a business. So we're going
to incorporate this in the forum for
sure to
>> to show
>> that it works.
>> for you it's all the predictions
at the beginning of a project with the
all project finances have have been
fulfilled or it was even better that
it was expected or it was just in time
the payback period ROI and everything.
How was it economically?
>> I think it depends on the project.
I think it depends
>> but in general like industry
what is it?
>> It's really difficult to say because at
the moment there is a very depressing
mood because of the government is the
government works very
discussion on the legal framework. It
just happens comes out of the blue the
whole time and this is very very bad for
for the for the mood
and it's not the whole economic
system is based on gut feeling.
>> Yeah. Everybody invests of course on
data on numbers calculations but in the
end you have to trust in the whole
economy
>> and if if policy makers work
eretically
it really disrupts this trust in
the economy and that's at the moment
that's the main mood in the whole in the
whole industry and for me it's very
disturbing because as you said
the money is there the whole Europe has
sits on tons of money, billions of money
and usually money flows to where
yeah
>> where the projects are.
>> Where the projects are and if there is a
a high legal risk and if if the if the
the whole mood is bad money goes
anywhere else and that's the problem at
the moment. And so if you ask me if the
return on investment and stuff like that
is fine. it's not so easy to
answer that. I would say at the moment
everybody is very very very careful
because everybody is afraid that it's
getting worse and at the moment of
unfortunately policy makers are proving
them right.
>> Just on that note I'll go back to the
technical part. How do you think now
do you see PPA based
>> client industrial clients coming for
the wind power
>> and the long-term price stable
supply is being incorporated for
for the industry how's the industry in
response to wind power
>>
it was stronger of course it was
stronger when energy prices were higher
so energy prices objectively
energy prices are lower than they
were 2022, 2023, 2024.
So they are decreasing.
But what stayed was that energ that
industrial partners and not just
industry but alsomemes are looking after
what they what can they do can how can
they hedge and in the end PPA is a
hedge.
>>. And so everybody's interested
and there is quite
a vital community discussing about that
and there are PPAs out there. in the
end I would see that PPA are part of
let's say a hedging environment but also
a de-risking environment on the other
side. So turbine turbine
turbines are built and you can derisk
your investment by long-term contracts
with the industry but also with energy
communities.
>>.
>> So energy like people citizens are
>> they are small like small PPAs you can
derisk your your your your project with
that as well. And on the other side of
course people decide completely
congruent with industrial
partners. So everybody wants to hedge,
everybody wants to have security. So the
interest in that is rising
>> but slower than it was before.
>> Wow. That's a bit sad new but
it's reality at the end like how the
market is
>> yeah feeling right now.
>> And I think to be honest I'm not I'm
always I'm always cautious if something
gets too fast
>> because there is always there is always
then a downer. So it the
adoption rate of new technologies of new
solutions has to be healthy.
>> Yeah.
>> And on the question that Daniel had
earlier about intermittency
it's also the wind power being used
for heating or maybe hydrogen. Is there
anything any project that comes into
your mind which is going on currently in
Austria?
Yeah, it's it's part of what I
would call
not just de-risking. Everybody is
looking for
yeah business cases. And one business
case might be for example melting
steel or iron with your windfog
like in Sturia for example. first
builds a new steel plant there
melting ste melting iron or steel with
with electricity.
>>. and there are wind farms around
there and they have direct lines or
direct contracts with first Alpena.
That's fine. that's how it should
work. And there are other cases of
course like PPAs or stuff like that
with power to heat production. Yeah,
there are quite quite a lot of various
projects. What I don't see at the moment
is hydrogen because as we saw and
this that's for one example for
unhealthy
unhealthy technology adoption.
It's not a rate because it was no
reality but
curve because there was a hype in
hydrogen and of course now reality is
hydrogen is more complex more expensive
and there are easier ways to
decarbonize or to use make useful
energy out of electricity than through
hydrogen. So, but in the end, yeah, of
course, hydrogen might be one thing as
well, but there are cheaper ways to use
the electricity at the moment
>> or easier ways.
>> And regarding the central and eastern
Europe region,
>> which country do you see with more
potential to deploy more wind
nowadays with the current legal
framework or the legal framework in
discussion? Which country will be more
attractive to see next years?
>> Well, it's heavily dependent on the
political environment., of
Hungary might be interesting as well,
but in the current political
environment, it doesn't doesn't work.
>> So, but there are elections and it might
happen that from one day to the other.
>> Yeah. In April, I think next year.
>> Yeah. It's it's El Dorado.
It's it can change rapidly. If
electricity prices rise up, usually
policy makers are quite fast in
developing new ideas.
>> Yeah,
>> that could change everything as well for
wind energy as well as for ducks.
I see that each and every country in the
world is a huge market because we
haven't developed a lot wind in terms of
the whole potential yet. So there is
everywhere potential
>> and do you get consulted by the
neighboring countries about about
>> if we see at least in Austria
compared to Hungary, Slovakia, Slovenia
the win potential huge and it has
been harnessed. So do the associations
do they try to consult with you? we
have quite a vital vital connection
in Brussels at the European Renewable
Energy Feder energy federation where
all the associations are connected to
each other and wind Europe which is
connecting all the wind associations.
but I have to say that the
associations in central and eastern
Europe are not that strong as as as
we are or the Germans are for example
not just because the market size but
also because of the history we
have 30 years of wind development in
Austria they don't have this this
time this period and we have competition
as well they don't have
that much competition there. So of
course if you have 200
members that's good for an association
it's make it makes it more complex
but in the end it's good
>> and they don't have that much companies
there so it's it's for them it's more
complex more difficult and it depends on
the political system as I said in
in Czecha and Romania it's very
transparent
you can agree or disagree that
they say that they don't need for
example in the Czech Republic public
don't need that much wind. Okay, you can
disagree or agree on that, but it's a
discussion. it. Yeah.
>> But for example, in Hungary, it's very
difficult not just on a on the basis of
discussion, but also on the basis of
economic surviv survivable
ability to survive economically
>> if you are disagree with our
>> Yeah.
>> to say the least.
>> Yeah. But it's also an opportunity for
the Austrian companies because when the
market will progress over there because
since they already advanced in the
>> on the capability it opens up new
avenues for them. Sure.
>> Yeah. all of them are active in
central and eastern Europe and with ups
and downs but due to the
proximity of course they are there and
historical ties as well and I think
there's some kind of culture as well
which promotes our companies there
because Austrians are some we
are not we're not that strict like
Germans we're more easy with
everything so it's that we can live with
risk.
>> I
just we are getting into the end
but I wanted to ask you also
about offshore wind
because it's
>> no offshore wind here.
>> No no no not here but how do
you see it in general the manufacturing
situation now that is mainly in China
but it's also something in Europe. So
how do you see the future of the wind
industry
>> because of the supply chain the
transport cost the job creation and
everything? there was a study of the
joint research center of the European
Union where they
they had a matrix in it where they
analyzed various future proof
technologies or so they called it
hydrogen automotive photovoltaics wind
energy stuff like that and wind
energy was yeah it was peak there
there I think There are some reasons.
The first reason is that of course we
were the inventors of wind energy
here in Europe. So most patents lie
here. A long long long experience in
that. So and it's electro machinery.
so we have to build up a system. It's
easier to produce photo dikes for
example in a large plant. It's mass
manufacturing. It's not that easy with
with such complex things like like wind
turbines., of course there's
competition from China, but there's also
competition from the United States, for
example. I'm I'm not the guy being
against China also. I don't like that
because, we're on the same
planet. It's 360 degrees.
so there will be always competition
and we can learn from China because what
China did was they built up not just the
supply chain but they also are
installing the turbines.
>> They consumers.
>> Yeah. They are consumers of that and
in my view it was it was and it is
always stupid from the European Union to
see the energy sector just as a producer
of energy
>> and not as an industry. That's that's
the core problem of the European Union
that we that we haven't understood how
industry works and this might be also
the death of Europe. if we
don't understand that we have to close
the loop we close the supply chain and I
mean of course there might be Chinese
turbines being installed in Austria all
over Europe. I don't care. it the
same could be with US American
turbines.
>> Yeah.
>> The issue is you have to promote
your own industry if you want to compete
on a global level. The same with
automotive, the same same with
computers, whatever.
>> And is there some production capacity
in Austria for wind?
>> yes and no. No, Austria is
Austria is usually we don't have an
OEM.
We don't have an OEM in I don't we don't
have have much OEMs. It's coming
through to wind. It's similar like in
the automotive industry. We have a lot a
lot a lot of component manufacturers.
For example, Bachman in Falbeck is the
best best example. We have more than
140, 000 wind turbines installed globally
and Bachman is in more than 50% of those
turbines globally. So we have those
strong
>> companies in the supply chain and
there are lots for example transformer
the global wind hub for
transformers is in Suria the global hub
for other parts of the wind turbines
there are global hubs for from other
countries in other federal states as
well. So yeah and component wise as
usually Austria is pretty good.
>> Yeah. so going now to the final
session of questions thinking about the
future
>> we were talking behind cameras like
what would you do with 100 million to
accelerate energy transition
>> my energy transition
>> building a PV plant on my house in the
Caribbean?
>> 100 million I would good question.
investing it in a faster
bureaucracy makes no sense because that
would be corruption.
>>
>> that's the problem with the 100
millions. the easiest way Yeah. would
would be
more people in the in the bureaucracy
and the jurisdiction
but investing it in investing it in
assets. that's that's the whole
thing at the moment. storage, wind
turbines, PB plants, investing in an
assets.
>> Okay. And this is a new question also
surprise.
with which question would you like to be
answered and you will pay 100 million
euros like for yourself?
>> Like a big question for the five next
five 10 years.
>> Oh, okay.
>> That's too many billions, right?
>> Yeah. I have to separate it. It would be
more
first would be what's the what's the
perfect European
mix?
>>.
>> What's the path to the perfect European
energy electricity mix?
>>.
>> It's not it's not in 2040. It's the
path.
>>.
>> Path would be interesting. The path.
Yeah.
>> The scenarios.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
But so year by year by year by year. So
how do we get there the most efficient
way and
with the calculation of the grid
investment grid infrastructure
and answering the question how should
the legal and regulatory framework
develop around that
and yeah I would put it in a super
national entity being responsible for
that. Yeah, not very democratic
>> never to think about. Thank you.
>> And also talking in the future
perspective, what do you think is the
next frontier for the wind energy?
What should in technology
what's coming next or it just the
pipeline which is already existing that
it should it should work or is there any
new
>> part breaking technology coming?
I don't believe in I don't believe in
disrupt in technologies
falling from the sky being disruptive.
at the moment I don't see I don't see
it coming.
I think it's yeah wind wind energy is
growing organically also the turbine
size. I think the next fronture will
be
creating security again because there is
a lot of insecurity in the electrical in
the energy system and at the moment
I think one of the largest problems is
that we have to get political stability
and security to regain political
stability and security. that's the
largest problem because the whole energy
transition is built upon belief and
trust in institutions and the political
landscape and it's that's
from that's really not just an Austrian
problem but also European problem..
>> So they have to regain control about
what they're doing and
stepping back from from responding to
disinformation and populism
and it's not just in the energy sector.
No, but we also are advocating that
energy is a political topic because it's
in longterm
>> and now it's not something
around technology because it's there
more about willingness and how to deploy
it faster. So
>> yeah.
>> Yeah. so now some advice that you
would give to the future professional
generation that it's coming in the
sector. What advice would you give them?
>> Don't listen to old guys giving advice.
>> Okay. Question everything.
>> Question everything. Exactly.
>> Even why I am doing this.
>> Yeah. Not question everything would be
the most important thing I think.
Question everything and always ask
why. And just on that also in the
market do you see any particular skills
that
>> that is needed to get into win market?
>> The I would say really I would say the
same. how often I get to the
point when when you ask three or four
times why and you get to the point that
the person on the other side of
the table can't give the right answer.
there is a problem we have to
solve or there's an opportunity we have.
>>. And I think the being being
maybe not pushy but being interested and
curious I think being curious is very
important curious beyond your your
specific sector because what I don't see
is there's there's not that much
potential. There's always potential for
silos. If you're an expert in X,
>> great. But I think the from for me in my
point of view, the most important thing
is being curious on the what's what's
lying on the left and the right side on
your of the road and why is it there
and I don't see it that much and I think
it's very important.
>> Yeah. Cool. Actually, we started this
out of curiosity because we wanted to
know what is happening here. So very
grateful to learn from from you today.
we hope to have you again with new
good news with the how is the this law
being
>> maybe another another law maybe.
>> Yeah.
>> yeah but thank you very much for
coming.
>> Thank you for inviting.
>> Appreciate it.
>> Thank you Florian. It's been a pleasure.
Do you have any last thought?
>> I think you have talked enough.
>> Okay. thank you very much. We hope
you also to see you in the next forum in
June and also invite all the
community to check the social media
because we're going to be sharing more
information about the forum. Thank you
for watching the episode until the end
and see you in the next interview
here in the bridge.
>> Thank you very much. Bye. Ciao.

Wind Energy 2030: Deconstructing Permitting & Grid with Florian Maringer, @igwindkraft | S1E17

Permitting Reform is Critical for Speed

Legal Certainty Derisks Investment

High Grid Fees Impede Wind Deployment

Flexibility Requires Strategic, Open Approach

Energy Policy Must See Renewables as Industry