S2E03

From Molecules to Markets: Venture Scaling the Energy Transition with Rudolf Zauner|@verbundag|S2E3

with Rudolf Zauner· Verbund AG· 64m

TL;DR

Verbund's Rudolf Zauner discusses pioneering green hydrogen, scaling renewables, and investing in energy transition startups via Verbund Ventures.

Synopsis

Rudolf Zauner, a veteran of the energy industry and Verbund AG, shares his journey from building a small hydropower plant in the 80s to leading innovation at Austria's largest utility. He details Verbund's early ventures into renewables in Eastern Europe and Spain, highlighting the challenges of developing projects in nascent markets and the importance of local partnerships and community integration. Zauner also recounts Verbund's pioneering role in green hydrogen, including the H2Future project, which deployed a 6 MW PEM electrolyzer at voestalpine in 2019. The discussion shifts to Verbund Ventures, the utility's investment arm, which focuses on late seed and Series A funding for clean tech startups across Europe. Zauner emphasizes the critical role of innovation, strategic investments, and robust policy frameworks in accelerating the energy transition. He also touches upon the challenges of achieving 100% renewable electricity, the need for interdisciplinary skills, and the importance of customer-centric approaches in technology adoption.

Key metrics

by the numbers · 8

8 kW
Pelton turbine capacity
98%
Verbund renewable generation share
35 TWh
Verbund annual generation
6 MW
H2Future electrolyzer capacity
27 TWh
Austrian 2030 renewable electricity gap
€2.5 million
Verbund Ventures maximum investment
10
Verbund Ventures startup investments
€6 billion
Verbund green infrastructure investment

Topics

8 tags

HydropowerGreen HydrogenVenture CapitalEnergy StorageGrid FlexibilityPolicy RiskElectrificationTalent Shortage

Stats

Duration: 1h 03m
Words: 10.2k
Questions: 102

Timeline

10 chapters

Built Small Hydropower Plant
Rudolf Zauner and schoolmates designed and constructed an 8 kW Pelton turbine hydropower plant in the Alps, which is still operational.
Joined Verbund, Renewable Power Founded
Rudolf Zauner joined Verbund when Verbund Renewable Power was founded, starting his career in renewable project development.
Verbund's First Greenfield Wind Projects
Verbund developed its first greenfield wind projects in Romania's Dobrogea region, building infrastructure from scratch and integrating with local communities.
First PV Projects in Spain
Verbund initiated its first photovoltaic projects in Spain, navigating a nascent market with many unverified development proposals.
Verbund Initiated Green Hydrogen Program
Verbund began its innovation program for green hydrogen, aiming to extend its value chain from electricity to green molecules.
H2Future Project Granted EU Funding
The H2Future project, a large-scale green hydrogen initiative, received EU funding, becoming a lighthouse project for industrial electrolyzer deployment.
6 MW PEM Electrolyzer Operational
A 6 MW PEM electrolyzer, the world's largest at the time, went into operation at voestalpine's steelworks in Linz as part of the H2Future project.
Green Hydrogen at Blue Danube Project Idea
Rudolf Zauner conceived the 'green hydrogen at Blue Danube' project to produce green hydrogen in Romania/Bulgaria and transport it via the Danube to off-takers in Austria/Germany.
Christian Doppler Laboratory Started
Verbund started a Christian Doppler laboratory with the Technical University of Vienna to scale up oxygen ion battery technology, aiming for a spin-off.
Verbund Ventures Launched
Verbund launched Verbund Ventures, its investment vehicle, to invest in late seed and Series A clean tech startups across Europe.

Key insights

5 takeaways

01
Policy Stability Crucial for Investment
Unpredictable policy changes, such as solar taxes or certificate cuts, severely erode investor confidence and hinder renewable energy deployment in emerging markets.
02
Last 10% Renewables Very Expensive
Achieving 100% renewable electricity, especially the final 5-10%, becomes disproportionately expensive due to the need for seasonal storage and other costly solutions. Reallocating funds to other decarbonization efforts might yield greater CO2 reduction.
03
Europe's Innovation-to-Market Gap
Europe excels in basic research but struggles to industrialize innovations, creating a 'value of death' for startups. A shift in funding towards pilots and first-of-a-kind projects is needed to bridge this gap.
04
Hydrogen Cost Reduction Challenges
Electrolyzer costs may decrease with scale, but the balance of plant, which constitutes a large portion of a hydrogen facility, uses mature technologies with limited further cost reduction potential, making overall cost reduction difficult.
05
Interdisciplinary Skills Drive Innovation
The energy transition requires professionals with interdisciplinary knowledge and a curious mindset to identify niches and foster innovation, particularly at the interfaces of different technologies and disciplines.

Pull quotes

5 quotes

Veteran is one word. Vintage is another word.
—
Verbund is the largest Austrian electricity utility. We're very proud of our very clean generation spread around 98% of our energy production of electricity production comes from renewables.
—
He laid out he well, said that Europe is very good in basic research, but we are not bringing research into products and into industrialization.
—
What you can electrify, you will electrify, yeah?
—
Try to be interdisciplinary, yeah? Because I think especially if you are curious and you have to be curious, I think, there you find the niches and the really interesting stuff, yeah?
—

Transcript1670 cuesClick a timestamp to jump

Welcome to a new interview here in the
energy bridge. Today we are in Fair Wind
facilities
in investment hope. Amazing.
so today we have the pleasure to have
Rudolf Zauner.
It's the person behind the Fair Wind
innovation for new
Man of the Man of the person.
Yeah, so very happy thank you for
having us here and happy to have a
conversation with you today and know
more about Fair Wind X. Yeah, exactly.
Thank you very much Rudolf first of all
for giving us the time. And you
Yeah, we can safely say you're the
veteran. You have seen
You have seen the energy transition.
Now this jokes aside, thank you very
much for joining us.
Yeah, please tell us
how how did it all start? Like how you
tell us a bit about your journey and how
you got into the energy industry.
Walk us through.
Sure, thank you very much for having
me here.
Veteran is one word. Vintage is another
word.
So
whatever you want to call it but I've
been around for quite some time in the
energy business so that's that's the
that's a definite here. As mentioned, my
name is Rudi Rudi Zauner and I have been
working for Fair Wind for quite some
time for 20 years. Wow. But my my
journey into renewables actually began
far earlier.
I did
technical school for mechanical
engineering a HTL we call it in Austria.
And as one of the projects there
actually it was a private project we
built a small hydropower plant.
At school, yeah. So it was actually my
seatmate who had the idea. He went on a
hiking trip to the Alps and went to this
chalet and they didn't have any
electricity. So, how can we help them?
We can build a small hydropower plant.
It took us a couple of years,
from developing, designing. We did all
the construction ourselves, even the
casting of the
of the turbine blades, everything
ourselves together with
schoolmates, of course. And we're very
proud in late '80s we could then
actually
opening it. The opening ceremony was
also quite a quite a thing. The local
politicians came and it was even in
the Austrian Verbund magazine at that
time, some 40-odd years ago. And it was
really good and it's still up and
running. It's an 8 kW Pelton turbine
that we built there. So, this was
actually I think this was my first
hands-on renewables project. I was
always interested in that. Yeah, an
entrepreneur like from Vinnity Nayer.
Well, yeah.
Yeah, well, you have to try things out,
otherwise you don't know whether they
work or not. Yeah. Totally. From that on
well, I was very fascinated with
chemical engineering
and of unit operations because you
can put them together like jigsaw
puzzles. and jigsaw pieces and you
can create your own processes,
sustainable processes, environmentally
friendly processes out of that.. So,
I decided to
get chemical engineering in Graz and
I specialized in environmental
engineering there.
And did my PhD then in at UCL in
London in process technology. So, this
was actually my my way, but it was
always a little bit, let's say, I was
always very much looking into renewables
and into environmental friendly
technologies, yeah.
So, yeah, I think there has been an
early interest in sustainability and in
environmentally friendly processes. And
yeah, with Verbund I found my
fulfillment because it's a purely
renewable company, almost purely
renewable company. So, I'm very happy to
be here. And you started your career
here.
Oh, no, I actually didn't. No. I Well, I
went abroad for quite some time. I was
abroad for about 10 years, yeah.
>> Yeah. Well, as I said, I did my PhD
in London at UCL and started my
career in Germany at BASF, big chemical
company. Very nice playground for young
young engineers, everything
there. Huge operations, many, many
processes, many plants next to each
other. It was just huge and a very good
learning ground..
started there and then
I was thinking about coming back to
Austria, but then there was this job
opening by Austrian Research Centers.
They had actually opened a branch in the
States in Pennsylvania for technology
transfer. So, I said, well, before
coming back to Austria, let's take the
US as well.
So, I spent a couple of years in the in
the US and yeah, it was very exciting
times.
where I worked on technology
transfer, then came back to Austrian
Research Centers where I worked on a new
technology called powder injection
molding where we started development
center, helped the Austrian industry.
and then well,
there comes this time in your life that
you think, well,
what is it really about and what do I
want to do, yeah? And then I saw
just by chance this job opening in
one of the newspapers. By that time you
looked at newspapers, not in the
internet or anyway anywhere else. And
saw that Verbund was looking for an
expert in renewable energies. And I
thought, well, I'm not an expert, but
I'll just try to apply, yeah. I applied
and this was actually when Verbund
Renewable Power was founded and by that
time I joined Verbund. Yeah, some 20
years ago.
you, Rudolf. Tell us a bit about
Verbund as well in the legacy of
Verbund. Yeah, Verbund is the largest
Austrian electricity utility. We're very
proud of our very clean generation
spread around 98% of our energy
production of electricity production
comes from renewables. Mostly, of
course, from our legacy technology
hydropower.. But we have added quite
a bit of wind and solar to our portfolio
as well. And this is also something
why I came into the company. I worked in
the renewables field. My first projects
were renewable projects in Spain,
PV projects, and of course, also some
projects in Eastern Europe. And I think
this makes a probably a nice bridge to
your bridge.
Yeah. And you were, just first of
all,
how big is the portfolio of Verbund in
megawatts?
Our Well, I can I can tell you the
annual generation that we have. That's
around, I think, 35
terawatt hours. And if you compare it to
the Austrian electricity demand, which
lies around between
65 to 70. So, it's it's a quite a quite
a quite a bit. Yeah. And as I mentioned,
mostly hydropower. We also have pumped
storage. Whenever you're in the Alps and
and walk around, go on a hiking trip,
you see some reservoirs. So, most of
them belong to us as well. So, they are
help very much as our green alpine
batteries to shift the energy between
Yeah, to the grid.
Exactly. Exactly. And we need more of
it. With more renewables, we will need
far more flexibility. And do you
have more projects in Eastern Europe?
Yeah, we have
we have projects
in development and actually in operation
in Romania.
we have projects in Albania as well,
yeah.
yeah, I think these are our two current
Eastern Europe production units. I hope
I haven't forgotten any any anything,
but I think I'm very sure about those.
And in terms of all the geographical
footprint around around Austria, which
other countries Verbund is active? We
are very active in Germany and very
active in Spain as well, where we also
build a portfolio of solar
mostly and wind. of course. yeah,
we have footprint in Germany. One of my
first wind projects were actually in
Germany in the Hunsrück. yeah, we
have of course projects in Austria also,
not only in hydropower, but also in wind
and PV and various technologies.
Yeah, in Albania, we have hydropower. We
are planning here wind projects as well.
And in Romania was also first greenfield
wind projects that we had some 15 years
ago.
and Verbund Renewable Power, they
there was actually long time our largest
wind portfolio with a couple of hundred
megawatts. It's in the eastern part of
Romania in the Dobrogea region, where we
really started from scratch.
>> And 15 years ago,
how was it back in the time to
develop something? Yeah, it
It was It was It was quite different,
yeah. It because
wind and solar were quite edgy
technologies. They were not mainstream
or anything at all, yeah. And
it was a time of, going
somewhere and not knowing what to
expect, yeah. So, one thing that we
quickly found out was
in countries like Romania, so it's very
good to work with local partners. So,
for the development of our projects, we
partnered up with a local partner
because I said we started from scratch.
It was wasn't even a substation there,
so we built a substation that feeds
into the 400 kV grid of
Transelectrica, the
Romanian TSO, also. That has to be
there had to be there as well. It now
also other wind park
operators feed into that. So, we were
really the first ones there, well, first
or second or so.
and we had to
yeah, get all the infrastructure done
and everything, yeah. So, we worked a
lot with local people, which is
also very important to also integrate
the local community., we had to
build the infrastructure, the streets,
and everything. And later on, when we
were there, we also we sponsored the
kindergarten, the local kindergarten,
and so on, really got involved in the in
the community. So, it's very very
important. We hired local staff, of
course. It was really
good to see how people liked to work in
the wind farms, yeah. They really saw
this as a chance, yeah. They worked very
hard, had very good work ethics, and it
was really it was a great time, yeah,
a great time of something something is
changing..
Exciting.
And
so, that would be the learning from
Romania to integrate also the community.
and you had similar projects
what other projects 15 years ago, let's
start
that you started and it felt like a
really massive things and now it feels
way more way more easier, let's One of
our first projects was in Spain..
on photovoltaics, yeah. So, it was a
time when many developers were actually
developing projects, but not that many
pulled actually through, yeah. So, this
is something
that was special to this time as well.
There were many many projects out there,
and you did didn't really know which one
will actually make it to the final
investment decision, yeah, because there
was such a lot out there. And did they
really have permit, and were they
water tight or not?
were there any land restrictions or
anything. Yeah, so it was really it was
a bit of a messy ground where we where
we had to move around, yeah. And but I
think this has changed now.
there's regulation in place, there's
policy in place, there's far far more,
let's say, legal backing how to tackle
such projects. But at the very beginning
this was very in the flow. Let's call it
in the flow, yeah. I can imagine that
the amount of due diligences
doing back in the time. If you have a
huge pool and you don't know which one.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you so you had
to visit it sites, the individual sites,
check the data, the winds data of the
of the years before and so on. We
worked with some very specialized
consultants at that time. They were also
some kind of pioneers in this time and
it was it was kind of
an area of an era of pioneers, I would
call it. So that is really was really
great to be part of that. Yeah,
that's in 2010 kind of around between
Yeah, yeah.
A bit before that actually. Yeah, yeah.
And regarding that we are in
interested in Eastern region
and you are you have presence there.
In your vision, what is your
opinion with the biggest challenge that
this region is facing because they are
relying more in fossil fuels?
And having said that Central and Eastern
Europe. Yeah, Central and Eastern
Europe. Yeah,
there's still a long way to go in the
energy transition. Yeah, some coal-fired
power plants that have to be
closed down.
Probably
the financial costs are higher in those
countries because the country risks are
higher. So it's more difficult to get
projects financed. And I think this is
something
projects in this
region of CEE are still still facing,
yeah. I think now the infrastructure
has really caught up quite a bit, yeah.
the infrastructure in terms of, let's
say, roads and accessibility to the
sites, the infrastructure of
telecommunications, and so I think this
is now really a good standard, yeah, so
that you can build on, yeah. And this
definitely has changed since then. This
telling of the risk is something that we
are addressing with the forums that we
are organizing to de-risk the region
through
more information, more transparency,
like putting people together, policy
makers, industry. So, yeah, we also
identified
this risk. That's definitely a very
important job that you are doing,
and you are doing it How do you do that,
actually? To bring those stakeholders
together? basically, we are
taking the bridge concept from the EU
Commission of getting gathering the
regional stakeholders together. So, the
reason that we have chosen in Central
and Eastern Europe. And before you were
asking us why we chose this region,
so it's actually because
this this region has like similar
journey in energy transition.
and they the consolidation of
ecosystem still needs to happen. And
because of last couple of years of how
things have happened, they really need
to leapfrog their energy transition
journey.. And they had to have
certain players like ourselves and many
others who who are able to solve the
coordination gap between different
stakeholders of academia, industry,
policy makers, and strategic financing
for the projects. So, yeah, we
are addressing that through our
forums, where we take particular
topics, and Austria has to be the
regional model within Central and
Eastern Europe, so we do our forums in
Vienna.
And for any particular topic, we
make sure that all the stakeholders are
present so that any discussion could be
outcome-oriented. So, that's how we are
addressing via forum. We do other
things as well, but that's about the
forum. Yeah, so it's like a good plan,
yeah. Yeah, so in it's
inviting policy makers into the
discussion as well because energy is
super regulated sector.
And
main risk because I'm a developer by
myself, so
it's the legal certainty.
So, helping policy makers to go through
or to set a certain
even
the rules can can be super different,
but having rules enable more investment.
Yeah, and sticking to the rules is very
for an investor that they don't change
later on. Yeah, during
This has done a lot of damage in some of
the markets. Yeah. Yeah, I was in
Spain in the
Yeah, with the solar tax that they had.
And also I think in Romania they
introduced
some some cuts of the certificates and
so there there various things that
that happened that really do not
build the confidence of investors,
yeah. Also, we felt that the whole
innovation gap between how the
technology is moving and how the
regulation is moving is something to be
addressed if we really want the
deployment to happen faster. Now,
speaking about energy transition and
some like a bit of dreaming, what would
you do
if you had 1 billion euros? Where
Where would you bet? More in
long-term storage or more maybe
flexibility or demand response or
permitting reforms, maybe? But I think
renewable build-out is a kind of a
no-brainer, yeah? But it has to be
orchestrated, I think, yeah? With the
right renewables in the right place at
the right time. It has to be coordinated
with flexibility build out and with grid
build out. Flexibility build out, I
mean,
storage and demand flexibility for
time-wise shifting and grid flexibility
for geographical shifting. Because only
then renewables will come to their full
potential, yeah? So, I would
I would spend some money
on
on those
Well, I would not spend it. I would
invest it. I would invest it, yeah?
In those technologies.
But
all of the technologies you mentioned,
we will somehow need them all because it
will be a mix at the end of the day,
yeah? And we will need
reliable and rigid policies as well,
yeah? We'll probably need some
incentives at the beginning to get
things off the ground, yeah? So, it will
be a mixture, I think, yeah?
So, I would not bet it on one thing,
but invest it more broadly. Talking
about different technology, you have
been one of the way early mover in green
hydrogen.
Tell us about the
early projects that you got into it and
before that whole hydrogen high powered,
why you started working on
it and what were the project about?
About 10 years ago, Verbund started to
move into into green hydrogen and yeah,
being a chemical engineer, I put my hand
up and said, "Well, here I am."
And said, "Well, this is a topic I
believe in and that could really
become great and we have to have a
closer look at it.
We looked at the role that Verbund
could play. We wanted to extend our
value chain from an electricity producer
to a provider of green molecules. And
for that we started we initiated a
innovation program green hydrogen, ?
And at that time
the hydrogen was not very much spoken
about it, but there were already a few
opportunities
from EU funding. So we applied for EU
funding for a large project for H2
Future which got granted and it
was actually a quite a
a lighthouse project at the time.
We deployed a 6 MW PEM proton exchange
membrane electrolyzer
at the steelworks in Linz at
voestalpine. And at the time this was
the world's largest electrolyzer to our
knowledge. So world's largest PEM
electrolyzer to our knowledge.
>> How big was it? 6 6 MW at that time. So
this was 2019 it went into operation. It
was far
before all the big projects and so were
announced. So was a strong consortium,
yeah, with voestalpine as the industrial
partner.
Siemens as technology provider. Then we
had
the Austrian TSO Austrian Power Grid as
the grid operator. We had two research
organizations in our consortium K1-Met
and TNO from Holland. And voestalpine
was coordinator and the utility. And
actually I coordinated this project. It
was very exciting, yeah.
It was also really success story from EU
side as well. We got prices and
awards for that project because it was
really a huge thing. And what we
actually wanted to do is we wanted to
deploy
industrial electrolyzer in an industrial
environment and
see whether we could utilize it as a
flexibility tool, yeah. See how we could
actually use it for grid balancing and
for some
ancillary services like power to
Like Yeah, yeah. Bit like power to X,
yeah. Exactly. Project started in 2017
and we went into operation late 2019,
yeah, just before
COVID, which was good because it ran
then all automatically and we
could run it
and actually
operate it from here as well, yeah.
and we pre-qualified it for grid
services for
FCR, which is frequency containment
reserve for
AFRR, automated frequency restoration
reserve on MFRR,
manual frequency regulation reserve,
which used to be primary, secondary, and
tertiary reserve. We did that together
with
our partner Austrian Power Grid, the
grid operator, and we qualified for all
these services and now we're operating
it mostly in the AFRR
regime and we feed in the hydrogen
the green hydrogen into the pipe system
of voestalpine. So, it has been running
since still in operation and was
quite a milestone. We learned a
a lot a very a lot about operating
electrolyzers and
what are the boundaries, how can you
actually start how quickly can you
start them up, shut them down, and
all these kind of things. Have you been
involved in any current projects as well
for hydrogen? Not in any current
projects but
there's probably one one project that
might be interesting to you as well
because it concerns the CE region
as well. So, in 2018 I had the idea
for a project they called it green
hydrogen at Blue Danube
where the idea was to produce green
hydrogen in Romania and Bulgaria out of
renewables. We saw from our operations
that there was enough space for wind and
so and it was quite, quite easy to
produce wind there, and then convert
the renewable energy into green hydrogen
and ship it along the river Danube to
off-takers, let's say, in Austria or in
southern Germany, Bavaria. So, this was
the plan.. And we did a feasibility
study for that, and it turned out that
well, transportation and so, it was it
was too expensive, yeah, Yeah. at the
time, unfortunately, yeah. So, we
didn't continue with this project, but I
think it was a one of these early
projects. It was quite visionary because
it was looking at international value
chains for hydrogen at the time when
nobody was talking about that, yeah. So,
was unfortunately didn't turn out, it
didn't materialize, yeah. We then, as a
follow-up, did some smaller projects
along the river Danube, but that was
really something, I think,
where we put our mark on the hydrogen
landscape, as well. Okay. So, this
hydrogen transportation through the
Danube was thought in green ammonia
or in fuel cells or pipelines? What was
the idea? Yeah, very, very good
question, and of course, we thought
about that a lot, yeah. We also worked
together with the Danube Commission,
which is located in Budapest, yeah, to
find out what are the best ways of
transporting hydrogen or its derivatives
on the river Danube, and originally, we
thought the
probably most pragmatic way was with
liquid organic hydrogen carriers, LOHC,
where hydrogen is chemically
bonded to
a liquid, and then it is debonded
again, yeah, by a thermal process.
>> With a low temperature, high pressure.
Yeah, well, it's yeah, you
it's
hydrogen is not transported as hydrogen,
but as a liquid then. It's It's but it's
not liquefied, it's actually chemically
bonded to a liquid, which is harmless
and that can be transported like any
other
any other cargo on the river Danube.
So, this was the big advantage because
if you think into pressurized hydrogen
or into liquid hydrogen also, you might
have problems with all the locks around
the
Danube. So, we thought ooh
we don't want to get into that. Yeah.
Let's let's see whether this way would
work and from a I think from a
permission point of view, it
the Danube Commission was quite quite
sure, that
there had to be a few policy changes
probably, but that would have been
possible, yeah.
>> Yeah. And how do you call this
process? With
>> it's liquid organic hydrogen
carriers, LOHC
they are called, here.
>> Okay. And they were working with a
company in Germany actually on that,
yeah. Yeah, there are some some
interesting concepts out. We also
looked, of course, a little bit into
ammonia later on and so
it's tricky, yeah. Yeah, the efficiency
of the system.
>> Yeah. Yeah, yeah, we also thought about
probably producing other, let's say,
hydrogen derivatives like e-fuels or so
and then ship them. Yeah. But it gets,
unfortunately, with every step that you
add to the process, it gets it doesn't
get cheaper.
But you think like the other costs
are coming down and. That's a that's
a good
question because already at that time
many many consultants predicted that the
electrolyzer costs and the cost of
hydrogen would would come down. I was
always a little bit doubtful about that
because I'm a chemical engineer and I
know such a hydrogen plant
yeah, big part is balance of plant. Only
a small part is the electrolyzer and the
stacks, yeah, which actually could come
down in costs when you scale up
manufacturing, but balance of plant is
let's say, mature technology. They're at
the very end of their learning curve, so
it will not really come down. So, it
didn't surprise me too much that the
cost didn't that much come down. And
also, unfortunately, I think the
willingness to pay of customers also not
really not really increased. So, there's
there's still this gap. Yeah.
Yeah. But now that you are speaking
about innovation, let's go deep into it.
energy, we know
that the technology
is advancing faster than policy maker,
faster than anything.
So,
what do you think is the role of
innovation in energy transition? I think
innovation is a
is a key driver for any transition.
Yeah, not only for the energy
transition. Yeah, we have seen this in
in many industries. Yeah, you
know the examples. I don't have to
I don't have to tell you. Yeah. So,
I think we need innovation to really
build
a
renewables system that is reliable,
yeah, that is
competitive, and that is affordable.
Yeah, and
innovation will help us to do that. And
this will really actually trigger the
energy transition. Think about
Well, the other day I saw a graph in
what parts of the world wind and solar
are the cheapest energy sources. And I
think it covered 2/3 of the world
already, yeah. So, this is amazing,
yeah. And this is driven by innovation,
yeah. And this is really something that
gives us the spirit that we have we can
achieve something if we want to, yeah.
And I think this is a prime example
where innovation really
is
leads to this trigger
where
innovative technologies become cost
competitive, and then they just run
from themselves, yeah. And it's
Yeah. And is there some particular
innovation that you think that it
will be disruptive or you would bet more
Especially because we're both experts at
the ahead of the curve of
looking at the innovation.
>> Yeah, yeah. We're always ahead of the
curve.
No, I'm just joking. well, . Yeah,
that's it,
because
disruptions
are hard to predict because otherwise
you don't know the disruption. Yeah,
yeah, yeah, a lot about these shocks.
But, what I've experienced
especially now in the last, let's say, 1
or 2 years is there's that many
disruptions are not driven by
technology. They come from
policy and poli- political shocks also,
yeah. That actually
lead to disruptions. We see this,
yeah. We see this with taxes that all of
a sudden
show up, yeah.
And that the whole geopolitical
system is under flow right now. So, I
think this very much disrupts our
system, yeah. Or slows it down or makes
it faster at some places, yeah. Can you
think of any any example that in last 5
to 10 years that you it just came and it
disrupted the whole whole system and
got adopted very fast?
>> Of course, there's some some
technologies that
get quickly adopted, yeah.
just to think of EVs, of EV charging,
and then
how that is now progressing, yeah.
And about 5 or 10 years ago, it was,
well, too expensive. There was this
chicken and egg problem, and so on. But
now, there are wall boxes
everywhere, there are charging stations
everywhere, there are EV cars
everywhere. When you go out and you see
them. And it's really I think it's I
mean, it's disrupting the combustion
engine industry, as you see in Germany,
yeah. And
it seems that we are probably a little
bit overtaken by the Chinese right now.
I see that they are pushing into our
markets with their EVs, with the
cost-competitive EVs. So, I think this
could really lead to a complete change
in our mobility. Just on that note,
where where do you think like especially
in the whole energy system right now,
we have to agree that China and US they
they somehow lead in some part
of manufacturing. Where you think it's
Austria leading or Europe as a whole is
leading? That's a good question. I think
probably you read that Draghi report,
yeah?
He laid out he
well, said that Europe is very good in
basic research, but we are not
bringing research into products and into
industrialization. I think this is where
we are lacking. We are very good at
basic research. We still have a lot of
of patents and so, yeah. But we are
lacking of getting this on the road,
let's call it. And this is I think where
we probably also need a little bit of a
shift in the funding system, yeah? From
funding basic research probably to
funding pilots, first of a kind projects
and so, to close this gap between
lab scale
or or or small-scale and real
industrialization. This value of death
that many companies are facing if they
want to deploy new technologies, yeah?
They do not get enough funding, venture
funding to actually get the products out
in the market. At Verbund AG, do you
foster some some innovation with doing
pilots as well?
How does it go? And also
maybe together with academia, with
universities that you
about research partners or
just tell us a bit about like how how
did the innovation system works
between
within Fairphone X? Let's start with the
second part of the question with the
collaborations with universities and
then and partners. We think this is very
important. Yeah, plays a very important
role and we also have a kind of a
a legacy on working with universities
and partners and we see
there
is a lot happening. Yeah, we do not have
a lot of research facilities or I
actually almost no research facilities
also here on our
on our sites or in-house. So, we need to
work with partners and we actually
one of the projects that we recently
started was a Christian Doppler
laboratory with the Technical University
of Vienna.. on the topic of
oxygen ion batteries.
It's caught our eyes because these
batteries, they are non-combustible,
they are not toxic and they do not use
any critical minerals. So, Wow.
It looks like a very interesting storage
technology.
The
Technical University of Vienna has
developed it to small scale, let's say 1
cm by 1 cm as you as you do it in the
lab at the university and we said,
"Well,
let's scale this up.
Let's do a prototype with that and let's
test the prototype at Fairphone." And I
asked them how how we could do that and
they said, "Well,
this will take some time. We need to do
some more research on that and scale
it up and
they suggested to do a Christian Doppler
laboratory. So, we applied for one and
we got it funded and it started on
Jan- in January last year. And now we're
already at 5 5 by 5 cm of our cells and
we are
trying to use different manufacturing
technologies that are scalable so the
manufacturability is also given. We try
new material combinations and it's
it's very exciting and the plan here
is also to have a spin-off from the
technical university
for this
for this technology. So, I think that's
a very nice example where we see
something,
think about it because it would very
well suit our our projects for
co-location with wind and solar to have
these these storage units. Yeah, they
are
non-toxic.. Local production, local
manufacturing.
>> Exactly. We could interview them,
actually. Yeah, sure. I'll give you the
contact. Yeah. Yeah. I'm definitely
happy to do that. And this is other
thing that we are doing is bridging
innovation and startups with industry.
Actually, yesterday we came back from
Gdansk from a hackathon in critical
infrastructure and the concept of
hackathon of inviting professionals and
students a whole weekend, 24 hours,
working in a
in
working through some challenges and then
coming coming up with a solution.
It was super idea and especially in
in the whole energy sector right now
where
so, we'll be doing one in March.
yeah, it could be also for you to scout
for some innovation. Exciting. Yeah, I
mean, what we do actually, and this
probably comes a little bit to the
second part of the question, is we have
a 50Hertz accelerator program already
running for 5 years.
>> Yeah.
Where we do use cases and pilots with
startups. And this addresses your first
part of the question. Do we pilot with
startups? Yes, we do. Yeah, we do and
we also have some storage where we
actually then invest in those startups
because we also have 50Hertz Ventures,
our investment subsidiary,
>> together. where we can actually then
see if in what startups we want to
whether they have any funding rounds,
and so on. And this this really comes
together very nicely. And what led to
it?, you said it's already
been working for 5 years, right? Ex-
exactly, yeah., Verbund is a is
a large company. It's a it's a kind of a
big tanker that moves, yeah?
And it moves, and it moves steadily and
very reliably, yeah?
But sometimes you need these small
boats. The energy energy transition is
is a fast-moving, dynamic thing,
yeah? So, we need these small boats
where we can actually,
yeah, find new ways, investigate new
ways in a quick quick and easy way. And
we see startups as these kind of quick
boats, if you if you want to like yeah,
if you see the analogy that that I
wanted wanted to make here. One thing is
to work with startups to
see how we can actually use the products
in our business units, yeah? Of course,
they help our
our core business, our daily business.
But it's also also, of course,
interesting to see where is growth
potential in this and these startups,
and where do we actually want to invest
and see them
not only as a strategic, but also as a
financial investment. I'm thinking. And
in this innovation, it's always the
we are in the energy transition to get
100% renewables. How How do you see this
last 10% of
to get the 100%? Because it requires
more technology, more innovation. I
think here we have to be a bit careful,
yeah? Because
Well, let's talk about 100% renewable
electricity first, yeah? Oh, and
electricity is what? There's a big
difference between electricity and
energy. well, in Austria,
we have I think around 85% renewable
electricity. Verbund, as I said, is very
proud of 98% renewables in our
portfolio. And the Austrian Association,
Österreichs Energie,
has calculated that we need around, I
think, 27 terawatt hours to get to the
goal to have 100% renewable in
electricity by 2030.. But, 100%
renewables mean
on an annual basis, yeah? And not on an
Exactly.
>> hourly or second basis or so, yeah? So,
there will be times of surplus, and
there will be times of deficit in the
electricity system as well, yeah? And of
course, these times of deficit, they are
the
expensive one when it comes to the last
5 or 10% because they probably require
seasonal storage, I think, and then it
becomes really expensive, yeah?
So, the question that
I would ask is, how much is enough,
yeah?
If we would, let's say, go to 95%
renewable electricity, and the last 5%,
yeah? Couldn't we use the money that we
need to close this gap to 100%? Couldn't
we use this money also to
have a larger lever on the CO2 reduction
in another field, let's say, in heating
or in renovating houses or anything,
yeah? So, I think we already
very far, but 100%, I think it's it's
the expensive bit, and
where do do do we really want it? And if
we want to
go to a, let's say, a carbon neutral
system or so, there are many other
places where we if we would find them,
probably the money spent would go a go a
bit further than there. Let's call it
that. If you if what I what I
mean. I think
on paper, 100% renewables is
very good goal, and I think in practice,
it's very difficult to achieve, as you
said, the last last few percents are
very expensive.
>> And Rudy, going back to Fairbourne
Ventures, Yeah. please walk us
through
how they're operating, what is the
current portfolio,
what are the stages that Fairbund
accelerator works in, the ticket size,
and also geography.
is it like Austria-centric or it does
not have any
geography focus? Yeah. So, there are two
things. There's the Fairbund accelerator
that we started around 5 years ago,
which is, it's an accelerator
program for pilots. But about 2 years
ago, we started with Fairbund Ventures,
which is actually the investment vehicle
of Fairbund to invest in startups, yeah.
And we have a investment thesis there.
We invest in late seed and series A up
to 2 and 1/2 million euros, and our
local focus is Europe. So, our portfolio
spans all over Europe, and we invest in
the clean tech sector, clean energy
sector.. Yeah. So, this is basically
the concept, and then these are the
boundaries in that we
we act in Fairbund Ventures. And what
are the stages? Do you have any specific
like seed, A, B, or the later stages?
It's late seed and series A. These are
the stages where we invest. And in this
journey, what has been the biggest
surprise of sources of
innovation, like spin-off, universities,
or series founders, or Well,
there are there are many sources, yeah.
There's the accelerator that I mentioned
my my colleagues they attend a lot of
events and they have a very good
network, and I think the network is
extremely important in the venture
scene. There is a lot of
word of mouth, people talking
about things and one
investor telling you his or or their
deal flow, yeah. And you just have a
lot of exchanges with others and then
see what what they think where where
things are going with various
companies and so. So, I think
this network is extremely important
and also it surprised me here that it's
really such a strong. driver for
finding the best best investments there.
>> it helps to find this needle in the
middle of the straw. I don't know if you
have this.
>> In the middle of the haystack, yeah,
yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly, yeah.
Because well, we screen
couple of hundred
startups each year and we have invested
so far in about 10, yeah. So, it's
really finding this needle in a haystack
as you as you said, yeah. And that's
time consuming, but you get better and
better. You see what you have to watch
out for., what is the average ticket
size for the investment at Fairpoint
Deutsch?
>> Around 1 and 1/2 to 2 million, I would
say. So, maximum is 2 and 1/2 million,
yeah. Okay. And how do you measure
success
in this investment and scouting? Well,
we are we are quite new in the game.
2 years ago. Of course, we have defined
KPIs on how the
how the startups are performing. They
have some KPIs, revenue and
and
growth areas and
sales cycles, how long they take and
then all these kind of, let's say,
parameters
vary from from startup to startup, yeah.
And we have
we are very engaged with our startups as
well. So, we are
>> Okay.
usually on
on the board
either as a board member or
advisory member or or observing member.
And
we also try to link them with our
business units because
we do strategic investments that relate
to our business units as well. And one
of the successes is of course if there
comes some deal out of that, yeah, that
the business units works with the
startup. So, this is this is something,
yeah.
There's a nice example of a Romanian
startup.
Back to the to see
I said we invest in the
all over Europe.
There's a company Romanian company Ogar
AI they are called and they do
forecasting for EV charging points. And
they were part of our accelerator. They
did a pilot with one of our business
units of smart weeks and we saw that
they had potential and so we invested in
them. So we are now invested in Ogar
AI and our business units are working
with them. And the accelerator program
is
how long is the program? We do batches,
yeah. Yeah. It has been running for 5
years. I think we've done nine batches
or so. Probably
eight nine batches. So we would do one
or two batches each each year. It's
actually a
a collaboration program where we have
other
industrial partners as well. Yeah,
there's a long list of partners actually
that are either real partners or
associated partners for that and we
define use cases. I think we've done
around
50 use cases, roughly 50 use cases.
With those startups.
We have done a selection phase, yeah,
and then a pitch phase which is usually
online and then there's a
kind of a demonstration day we invite
the winners. How long is the batch
over the year? It runs for
well, the whole process is probably
around the half a year. Yeah.
From from the very first scouting we
usually work with some partners on
the scouting as well until we
we have to demo day where the
the startups then also invited.
>> And currently
is there any scope that you're
particularly looking into the startups
or any particular area? We have defined
some, we call them, investment
thesis for areas where we look into
and they are
partly
quite broad, yeah. It's sustainable
energy production, it's green mobility,
and it's,
flow and flexibility, we call them. So,
these are the main areas and there
are now some areas around that coming as
well with some
newer technologies, some deep tech that
we are
looking into. So, we started with our
core
expertise and we are now like trying to
look a little bit outside that as well
because we see that many of the really
interesting things happen at the
interfaces between disciplines and
between technologies and so on and so.
This is why we're moving in that
direction as well.
>> So, now look looking to the future.
what do you think about this,
disruptive technologies as, carbon
capture, we are facing now
digitalization in the grid,
we scoped this, project with AIT
about, high temperature heat pumps
because we also share that, energy
consumption is 22 to 23% electrical, the
rest is, a bit of biomass and the
rest is fuel. How do you see the energy
sector
this technologies,
carbon capture, digitalization,
heat pumps,
geothermal now also coming.,
there are so many external drivers to
that, yeah, like policies and politics
and, how the demand will actually
increase or decrease, in what
fields, in what regions and so. And
these are all drivers that will actually
lead to one or the other technology to
probably to be dominant in one part of
the world, yeah. Will it then just also
come to other parts of the
This is so difficult to say, yeah? I
mean, we see, of course, that
electrification is quite strongly
pushed.
I have to say that because I'm working
for an electricity company, so
electricity electricity first, yeah.
And as we talked about renewables and
renewable penetration earlier on, so
electricity becomes very very green,
very low CO2 footprint. I think what you
can actually electrify
electrify.
Because
these are the lower hanging fruits
still. So, we see electrification of
heating by heat pumps, probably also by
lower temperature industrial heat
applications, yeah? We see
electrification in the mobility sector,
of course, with
EVs, and we see that more and more
trucks are now probably going this
direction with mega chargers. So, I
think this is unstoppable. What you can
electrify, you will electrify, yeah? And
then there are probably some of the
hard-to-abate sectors. We had steel
earlier on, fertilizer is probably
another one, yeah? Cement, yeah? Yeah.
And there I think we
we need a probably a holistic European
view on that as well. What industries do
we actually
want in what value chain steps here in
Europe, yeah? Do we Well, nowadays,
let's say we import iron ore from
Brazil, from
Australia, or so, yeah?
Would it be thinkable to
import in the future not iron ore, but
hot briquetted iron, yeah? Use
renewables in Australia, a lot of sun,
cheap renewables,
produce green hydrogen, and produce hot
briquetted iron there, and ship that as
a pre-product to Europe. Then you have
still a lot of the value chain here
covered in Europe with the
processing, the steel making, all the
quality products making out of it. But
you have
shifted the energy demand from Europe to
another part of the world where you
probably
are not so restricted by
place and by resources. This is
something I'm a little bit missing.
Probably you can start in the CEE
region, yeah? Think about that whether
each individual country needs their
steel work, needs their fertilizer
plant, needs their cement plant, or
could there be a kind of a unified
European strategy on that, yeah?
Interesting. And just in that note of
electrification, we recently went to
China
and we visited some
like associations and
some institute of research and they told
us that they're nearly 40% electrified.
And they're keeping pushing. Yeah. So,
it's
maybe it's a big opportunity to
Europe also to electrify more, find the
gaps, and push more electricity in a
with clean resources. So, it's Exactly.
Yeah, I think that's the way forward,
yeah. And that's probably the transition
the energy transition is all about,
yeah? This is way to renewables and
penetrate as many
sectors as possible. Rudolf, I would add
that we think of energy transition to
be a technological challenge. It's
also a skill challenge. we were I was
just looking into the IEA energy
employment outlook. Do you think there's
professional shortage in the industry
right now or
going forward, what are the going what
are going to be the critical skills
and that the Europe needs to have its
own workforce going forward also to
drive this transition forward? So, what
what what do you think it's missing and
what you think about if there's really a
shortage or where is the industry right
now? Build out of renewables is far
faster than the talent that's created to
actually do that. Yeah, so there's
definitely a gap in
electrical engineers and in
software engineers and so and also
in maintenance people or who actually
do the on-ground work there as well. And
at Verbund we have a special approach
there because we also have a an
apprenticeship program here where we
have a
a program for young people to do
apprenticeships in mechanical and
electrical engineering combined. Yeah.
at three of our sites we have
three places where we actually do this
this education for them. And we These
are actually the
the future plant operators for us and
they know our plants then very well. We
need these people who are actually
very familiar with hydropower, with
everything that we do here.. And
they also more more looking into
into photovoltaics and into wind of
course. Yeah, we have a team of wind
experts that do all the maintenance. We
have actually brought this in-house
already about 10 years ago. This was one
of my jobs when I was in charge of wind
and solar operations. to cut costs we
created a team that is on-site at our
wind farms in Upper and the latter
and Lower Austria that actually does
maintenance. So this was also quite a
quite a new concept at that time. so
we get a lot of skill in-house and that
helps us to build on this on this
skilled skilled people I think. Yeah.
So you see the problem but you are
solving it inside.
>> We're trying to mitigate it. Yeah, we're
trying to mitigate the problem
by having the workforce also in-house
that we are more flexible here. We were
supposed to move to the clothing and
your personal insights. I just have
one question because
yesterday I thought that there had been
a trade deal between free trade
agreement between EU and India.
What do you think it entails for
just on the skilled talent? I thought
that it's going to be
I see more
skills and more professionals going to
India to help their their journey. But
do you have any opinion? Like what do
you think of this FTA? I have seen it in
the news, but I haven't followed it up
very closely to be honest, yeah.
But I'm
think about all the software engineers
in India. There are such a lot of
skill there, yeah, that we want to tap
into here in Europe as well, of course.
And
I think
Europe will
will make it probably will very much
profit from that from that agreement,
yeah. And
I said earlier on I did my my PhD in UK,
yeah. So there are many Indian people
there. There's a huge community and
they are
super super integrated in everything
and I think this should happen in
continental Europe as well, yeah. So
also to bring people here. We see that
in India there is such a huge growth in
renewables in solar and so it's
just amazing, yeah. 30 gigawatt project
>> Yeah, I was recently talking with some
of the state utilities and
what they want to learn from here is a
lot of the grid infrastructure because
they also need to modernize and
and there's a lot of software component
that Europe has already advanced. And
also the power market has not been
liberalized in India. It hasn't opened
yet. Okay.
>> And that is something that there's a lot
of learning for them. So I feel that the
professional outflow is going to be a
lot, especially in the energy sector,
from Europe to India.
>> It will be in both directions. I'm sure
it will be in both directions, yeah.
Green infrastructure is an interesting
one, yeah., there are also new
technologies out there, innovations like
HVDC and so on. India is a huge huge
subcontinent, a huge country. You might
actually tap into some of the
innovations here
and make use of it, yeah. Definitely. We
can make the bridge in some point,
right?
>> Yeah.
There has to be one.
Yeah. So, now in the
just to be closing and wrapping up,
in a personal level,
what would you like to be your your
legacy in energy transition? This
looking this young teenager making a
hydropower plant in a remote area, now
in the biggest utility fostering
innovation.
How do you see it? Well, there were a
few other projects in between., yeah,
sure sure sure.
No, no. Yeah, yeah,
well, this is something for a different
for a different different time, yeah. I
said,
my fulfillment is to work for Verbund,
which is a green and renewable
company, and we
at the time I've been with Verbund, we
have extended our footprint all over
Europe. So, I think this expansion is
very important, yeah. This is also a
a legacy that drives me, that we do not
only concentrate on Austria, but I
think we have to
to bring renewables and build the energy
system of the
of the future to all over Europe. I
think this is this is one of the
legacies, and Verbund wants to invest
around 6 billion euros. We had a 1
billion question earlier. We're
investing 6 billions between 25 and 29
and 27 in green infrastructure, in
renewables, in storage, in
innovative technologies. So, there's a
lot of money going into that, and this
is in times when there is an industrial
downturn in Europe. So, we are really
putting
our money where our mouth is. We really
invest, and I think this is something
that has to be said sometimes as
well, yeah, because I think it's very
important for the for the economy
here, and this is, I think, how we can
actually
make a big difference for decarbonizing
and building up building back Europe.
And just in the personal level that
we were talking about this before
recording, but in a personal level,
you live sustainability by yourself.
Just to ask you, how do you live in
your daily life? You have to be aware of
it, yeah. You have to be aware of
sustainability, and it's sometimes not
so easy. Yeah, the other day I read a
book.
It's called How Bad Are Bananas? Okay.
Mike Berners-Lee.
and
before you ask, they're not as bad as
Avocados are far worse, yeah. Oh, wow.
Because of their transport, yeah, to
Europe. And this is actually quite an
eye-opener, because it talks about
different
products, different actions or so, and
what actual footprint is
involved in those. And then you see,
makes you think about your your actions,
yeah. Your your own consumption. Your
own consumptions, yeah.
And of course, there are some some
no-brainers. I used to have a gas
boiler. I have a heat pump now. I have
solar PV on my roof.
That's for sure, yeah. And this is how I
try to make life as sustainable as
possible. About banana, just a fun
fact, one of the first
war
or fight between European powers
in I think in 17th or 18th century was
also about banana valley chain. Okay,
wow. Yeah.
but
what would you say like some of your
advice
for the for the
next generation which is coming into the
industry? What advice you will give for
for them to acquire the skills or just
in general
where the industry is going?
Yeah, so now we're listening carefully
to an advice from an old man.
No, I just just just joking. What what I
found in my life is that
try to be interdisciplinary, yeah?
Because I think especially if you are
curious and you have to be curious, I
think, there you find the niches and the
really interesting stuff, yeah? So
I think try always to be open open to
new things and try to look a bit
outside
outside the box, little bit beyond what
you normally do, yeah? I think that's
that's very important.
I think it's also important to learn
about fundamentals, yeah? About
processes, about products, about
customers, and so forth. Really learn
learn the nitty-gritty as well, yeah? Do
not stay on the surface, but dig deep
from time to time. I think that's also
very important and that's probably a
skill
that has to be
also learned in school a bit more, yeah?
Really go go a bit deeper, yeah? And I
think it's also a good idea to build a
strong network. Strong professional
network, yeah? Strong network also from
university as you as you do. You're
from the master's
program of the
of the Technical University. By the
way, I used to be a lecturer there.
oh wow.
I guess for if yeah, I made some finance
seminars in Prague and so. Yeah, and
similar advice for people who want
corporate investment from Ferb und so
weiter. Like budding startup. Well,
yeah, they have to do a bit more.
Yeah, but it's a super good advice
because now, especially with AI,
many sectors can be merged and create
new careers, new perspectives. It's a
new world ahead. There's such a lot of
knowledge out there and it's just on the
on the tip of your fingers. Yeah. If
you're in front of a of a laptop.
Literally.
And now the new section to finalize with
quick fire round. So, in your
experience, what is could be the most
overhyped technology? Escaping the
climate crisis by inhabiting other
planets like Mars because
Wow.
It's so desperate.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the Like Elon
Musk said in the in Davos that he
wanted to create Star Trek Yeah.
>> kind of this way. Well, yeah. Probably
probably I am too old for this stuff.
I don't know. So,
what would you say is the most
underrated enabler in any transition?
>> Yeah, I think what we also found out as
a regulated utility, it's customers
because they only buy what they want,
yeah? And you have to give them what
they want. So, really there has to be
focus on customers, I think, for
everybody. You were already talking
about a
the book. Any other book that you would
recommend?
Well, Especially for people who want
some investment.
Yeah, then you will have to learn the
basics of
>> And I thought
over there the book went your mindset.
Yeah, that's that's one that you can
read, of course, yeah.
It's on my bedside table.
No, well, one one book that's probably
quite interesting is called
Sustainable Energy Without the Hot Air.
It's by
by David MacKay from
Cambridge University. And it's it's
quite an eye-opener and I read it
cover to cover. So, it's it's really
good. It's very readable, very very
well written and you can download it
actually for free. Yeah. You can
either buy it as a
hard copy, but you can also download it
for free. So, that's really Okay, we are
going to add it in the description of
the video. Perfect. Yeah. How would you
describe the energy grid in the Austrian
energy grid in 10 years? The Austrian
energy grid in 10 years will be very
resilient.
>> On that note, thank you very much Rudolf
for giving us time. It had been a very
insightful session. Yeah, thank And also
very funny.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, thank you Rudolf and also for the
community for watching the video and the
interview until the end and stay tuned
for future interviews. Ciao. Thank you.

From Molecules to Markets: Venture Scaling the Energy Transition with Rudolf Zauner|@verbundag|S2E3

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