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S1E22

The Case for Solar Thermal: Roger Hackstock on Europe's Heat Transition

with Roger Hackstock· Austria Solar, Solar Heat Europe· 75m

TL;DR

Despite accounting for half of Europe's final energy demand, heating decarbonisation remains eclipsed by power sector policy, leaving solar thermal markets depressed since their late-2000s peak. The sector's growth engine has shifted from residential hot water to multi-megawatt district heating and industrial process heat systems, frequently hybridized with heat pumps and seasonal storage. European manufacturing leadership remains strong in Austria, but market uptake across Central and Eastern Europe is severely hampered by the absence of dedicated trade associations and supportive regulatory frameworks.

Synopsis
Roger Hackstock, Managing Director of Austria Solar and board member of Solar Heat Europe, examines the overlooked role of solar thermal in Europe's decarbonisation agenda. While heat accounts for roughly 50% of European final energy demand, solar thermal markets have contracted by up to 80% since 2008 due to tumbling photovoltaic costs and an electricity-centric policy bias. Hackstock outlines how the technology is finding renewed commercial relevance through industrial process heat (food, beverage, concrete, mining) and district heating integration. Drawing on Austrian experience—where domestic manufacturers export 90% of production—he explores the mechanics of seasonal pit storage, borehole regeneration paired with heat pumps, and the urgent need to transpose the EU Energy Performance of Buildings Directive (EPBD) solar mandate without sidelining thermal technologies across CEE markets.

Key metrics

by the numbers · 6
  • half
    share of European final energy demand accounted for by heat
  • 80%
    contraction in the Austrian domestic solar thermal market since its 2008-2009 peak
  • 1,400 m²
    solar thermal collector area required to generate 1 MW of peak thermal power
  • 15-20%
    average annual solar thermal coverage fraction in Austrian district heating grids
  • 90%
    share of Austrian solar thermal collector production exported to foreign markets
  • below 10 years
    typical payback period for a subsidised domestic solar hot water system

Topics

7 tags
solar thermaldistrict heatingindustrial process heatheat pumpsthermal storageaustriacee
Stats
Duration
1h 14m
Words
15.1k
Questions
90
Speakers
3

Daniel Schaub · Roger Hackstock · Rahul Mishra

Timeline

9 chapters

  1. The Heat Dimension and Association Background

    Roger Hackstock reviews his career starting with 1980s self-built solar movements and explains the advocacy mission of Austria Solar and Solar Heat Europe.

  2. Market Boom and Photovoltaic Cannibalisation

    Hackstock recounts the Austrian subsidy race that peaked in 2008-2009 before plummeting PV prices drew public and policy attention away from thermal heat.

  3. Market Pivot to District and Industrial Process Heat

    The discussion turns to how solar thermal transitioned from single-family rooftops to megawatt-scale district heating and commercial process applications.

  4. The EU EPBD Solar Rooftop Mandate

    Hackstock describes the ongoing push to ensure national transpositions of the EPBD mandate recognise solar thermal alongside rooftop photovoltaics.

  5. Adoption Hurdles across Central and Eastern Europe

    The guest details why CEE countries lag in solar thermal deployment despite substantial potential in municipal district heating networks.

  6. Seasonal Thermal Storage and Heat Pump Hybridisation

    Hackstock explains pit thermal storage mechanics in Denmark and the operational synergies of combining solar thermal with ground-source heat pumps.

  7. Industrial Applications and Chile's Mining Case Study

    A review of temperature-matched industrial uses such as concrete curing and food processing, highlighted by utility-scale solar thermal deployed at Chilean copper mines.

  8. Manufacturing Sovereignty and Supply Chain Independence

    The discussion covers Austria's export-oriented solar thermal manufacturing base and its domestic component supply chain free from Chinese import dependency.

  9. Shift from Component Sales to Turnkey Systems

    Hackstock highlights how customer demand has evolved from gas-reduction measures to full boiler replacement through integrated ESCO contracting.

Key insights

4 takeaways
  • 01

    Solar thermal deployment has shifted from residential rooftops to megawatt-scale utility networks

    While household installations collapsed by roughly 80% after PV costs plummeted, the sector found stable economics in commercial process heat and district heating. Modern systems regularly deliver 1 MW per 1,400 m² of collectors, supplying 100% of network demand in peak summer and 15-20% of annual baseload.

  • 02

    Solar thermal serves as an operational enabler for heat pumps and biomass systems

    Rather than competing with heat pumps, roughly 75% of Austria Solar's catalogued case studies integrate both technologies. Solar thermal can regenerate ground boreholes over summer months to prevent freezing and offset biomass consumption during low-demand summer periods, preserving finite wood resources for winter peaks.

  • 03

    Unlike solar PV, European solar thermal retains a domestic, export-led industrial supply chain

    Austria manufactures roughly ten times more solar thermal collector area than it installs domestically, exporting 90% across Europe without dependence on Chinese components. This domestic manufacturing footprint provides resilience against geopolitical supply chain shocks as European utilities decarbonise heat up to 150°C.

  • 04

    Seasonal pit storage unlocks deep district heating decarbonisation

    Uninsulated systems typically cap solar coverage in district heating at 15-20% of annual demand. Utilizing large-scale water pit storages holding hundreds of thousands of cubic metres of water at 80°C enables networks to achieve up to 50% solar heat shares, providing multi-month bridging into mid-winter.

Pull quotes

6 quotes
  • Heat is half of the elec- of the energy demand in Europe.
    Roger Hackstock
  • We We lost almost 80% of our market since then in Austria with solar thermal, yeah.
    Roger Hackstock
  • Can be either PV or solar thermal. So we are fighting for the result that it's not only PV.
    Roger Hackstock
  • On the one hand, we take stress out of peak loads for heat, because it's not necessary to do it by electricity. We can do it by solar thermal. And stress out of the, resource demand for biomass.
    Roger Hackstock
  • Solar thermal is we produce 10 times more solar thermal collectors than we use in Austria. We export 90%.
    Roger Hackstock
  • They are coming now and say, "I have a gas boiler, and can you help me to remove the gas boiler?
    Roger Hackstock
Transcript1524 cuesClick a timestamp to jump
  1. [Music]
  2. Daniel Schaub: Hello, welcome to a new interview here in the Energy Bridge.
  3. Daniel Schaub: Uh, today we have the honour to interview,
  4. Daniel Schaub: uh, one of our professors in the Master's in Renewable Energies,
  5. Daniel Schaub: uh, Mr Roger Hackstock.
  6. Roger Hackstock: Right.
  7. Daniel Schaub: Well pronounced?
  8. Roger Hackstock: [laughter] Perfect.
  9. Daniel Schaub: And, uh, yeah, today we are going to explore solar thermal technology.
  10. Daniel Schaub: Uh, you being as, um, Managing Director, right, from Austria Solar
  11. Roger Hackstock: Right.
  12. Daniel Schaub: Association,
  13. Daniel Schaub: uh, which is,
  14. Daniel Schaub: you were, uh, telling us before, just for thermal.
  15. Roger Hackstock: It's only for solar thermal.
  16. Daniel Schaub: Okay.
  17. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, and I'm, uh, manage- I'm I'm, uh, a member of the board,
  18. Roger Hackstock: uh, director of board of the of the European solar, uh, thermal industry. So Solar Heat Europe, the
  19. Roger Hackstock: European solar thermal industry association,
  20. Roger Hackstock: I'm also, uh, member of the board of directors.
  21. Daniel Schaub: Oh, wow.
  22. Daniel Schaub: So we are very happy to have you here. Thank you for for coming, and,
  23. Daniel Schaub: uh, yeah, let's deep in in in solar thermal.
  24. Roger Hackstock: Yeah.
  25. Rahul Mishra: Thank you. Uh, thank you, Roger, for giving us the time.
  26. Rahul Mishra: We would We were actually looking into all everything that we want to know from you because,
  27. Rahul Mishra: first of all, uh, we are also called The Energy Bridge not the electricity, because
  28. Rahul Mishra: heat takes, uh, it's another form of energy which it which need to be decarbonised a lot,
  29. Rahul Mishra: and there had to be a lot of work to be done.
  30. Rahul Mishra: Please, uh, uh, tell us about your career journey. It's been a long journey, so where did you start from, and how did you, uh,
  31. Rahul Mishra: uh, end up at the association where you're managing it?
  32. Rahul Mishra: Uh, please tell us about it.
  33. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, firstly, that The Energy Bridge is very wise, wiser than Electricity Bridge,
  34. Roger Hackstock: [laughter] because, as we always say, heat is half.
  35. Roger Hackstock: Heat is half of the elec- of the energy demand
  36. Roger Hackstock: in Europe.
  37. Daniel Schaub: We have seen that we are electrified worldwide like 22-23%.
  38. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, and that's the same in Europe.
  39. Roger Hackstock: It's the same. We're electrified 20%, 25%,
  40. Daniel Schaub: Yeah.
  41. Roger Hackstock: and and heat is half, and the rest is mobility.
  42. Roger Hackstock: From the energy demand side, from the energy demand side.
  43. Roger Hackstock: So, uh,
  44. Roger Hackstock: heat is the the largest demand in energy what we have.
  45. Daniel Schaub: Hot topic.
  46. Roger Hackstock: It's a hot- Really, that's a very [laughter] I will remember that.
  47. Daniel Schaub: [laughter]
  48. Roger Hackstock: Yeah. And I'll- Shall I, may I take it? Okay, I'll use it. I'll use it, yeah.
  49. Roger Hackstock: Hot topic.
  50. Roger Hackstock: And I even had one podcast,
  51. Roger Hackstock: uh, done with an, uh, British, uh, company and the podcast was named "Hot Stuff".
  52. Daniel Schaub: Okay.
  53. Roger Hackstock: And, uh, it was a producer of solar thermal
  54. Roger Hackstock: collectors. So heat is half, that means, uh, it's the largest,
  55. Roger Hackstock: uh, heat dema- the largest energy demand, and and that's also what interested me most,
  56. Roger Hackstock: the large energy demand.
  57. Daniel Schaub: That was from the beginning?
  58. Roger Hackstock: And I I I started with with, uh, there was a self-built movement
  59. Roger Hackstock: of solar thermal collectors in the 1980s,
  60. Roger Hackstock: uh, when I started after my, uh, studies on electrotechnical engineering on the technical university.
  61. Roger Hackstock: Uh, I started in an interdisciplinary research group where we
  62. Roger Hackstock: uh, wrote down the history,
  63. Roger Hackstock: the very young history, short history of the self-built groups. So we dig into this. This was my start with solar thermal, self-built
  64. Roger Hackstock: groups. So they built people on
  65. Daniel Schaub: Hot.
  66. Roger Hackstock: Homemade. On the on on weekend, but with building groups. It's organised
  67. Roger Hackstock: self-built groups. It's not It's not do it yourself.
  68. Roger Hackstock: The classical do it yourself, you go somewhere, buy
  69. Roger Hackstock: uh, the stuff and build it yourself, but it's self-
  70. Roger Hackstock: made groups. They built
  71. Roger Hackstock: with machines and so, they built themselves on weekends solar collectors. So it's solar thermal
  72. Roger Hackstock: started like that, you could say, in in Austria.
  73. Roger Hackstock: Uh, they had been companies before, but, uh, I mean, it started with companies, but this was the main the first,
  74. Roger Hackstock: uh, up,
  75. Roger Hackstock: uh, swing
  76. Roger Hackstock: of solar thermal was with these self-built groups in in the 1980s.
  77. Daniel Schaub: Okay.
  78. Roger Hackstock: And this was my first research issue,
  79. Roger Hackstock: the self-built movement, yeah, from a
  80. Roger Hackstock: a very interesting issue. Interdisciplinary, from a technological side, from a legal side, from a,
  81. Roger Hackstock: uh, social side and so.
  82. Roger Hackstock: And afterwards, uh, I worked in the Austrian Energy Agency
  83. Roger Hackstock: as an expert for renewable energy, and also for I was the assistant of the managing director. That's where I learned how to work as an managing director.
  84. Daniel Schaub: Okay, cool.
  85. Roger Hackstock: I was the personal assistant.
  86. Roger Hackstock: Uh, and then,
  87. Roger Hackstock: Austria Solar was founded in 1999,
  88. Roger Hackstock: and, uh, in 2002,
  89. Roger Hackstock: uh, they asked me,
  90. Roger Hackstock: uh, if I'd like to, uh, take over the mana- the Managing Director
  91. Roger Hackstock: because the former managing director left,
  92. Roger Hackstock: and, uh, yes, that was a hearing of four people, I won,
  93. Roger Hackstock: [laughter]
  94. Daniel Schaub: Okay.
  95. Roger Hackstock: and, uh,
  96. Roger Hackstock: uh, and, uh, yeah, and since then since last year,
  97. Roger Hackstock: I celebrated my
  98. Roger Hackstock: 20 years of,
  99. Roger Hackstock: uh, Managing Director of Austria Solar.
  100. Daniel Schaub: Wow, congrats.
  101. Roger Hackstock: With with three years break in between, so I was there 12 years, three years break,
  102. Roger Hackstock: and then eight years.
  103. Daniel Schaub: Aha.
  104. Roger Hackstock: I came again.
  105. Roger Hackstock: They they took me back
  106. Roger Hackstock: to Austria Solar, yeah.
  107. Rahul Mishra: Could you please tell us about what the association does?
  108. Roger Hackstock: Yeah.
  109. Roger Hackstock: The association does what what all technology associations do, all have the same job, yeah.
  110. Roger Hackstock: They make three things, they make, uh, or four things.
  111. Roger Hackstock: They make, uh, a public relation
  112. Roger Hackstock: to tell the good stories to the media and everything.
  113. Roger Hackstock: They do quality assurance, so they have a label, for instance, we have an Austrian
  114. Roger Hackstock: quality label, Austria Solar quality label,
  115. Roger Hackstock: and, uh, they do lobbying
  116. Roger Hackstock: for
  117. Roger Hackstock: better laws, better free- framework conditions for the branch, yeah,
  118. Roger Hackstock: to reduce the obstacles on the market. And the fourth is, uh, to,
  119. Roger Hackstock: uh, keep the members of the association happy.
  120. Roger Hackstock: This is This is the fourth
  121. Roger Hackstock: part of the work, because they the member of the associations finance the association. So these associations are not state financed,
  122. Roger Hackstock: but privately financed by
  123. Roger Hackstock: Austria Solar, we have 100 members, company members, and they finance
  124. Roger Hackstock: the association,
  125. Daniel Schaub: Wow.
  126. Roger Hackstock: and we do projects, but mainly,
  127. Roger Hackstock: uh, it's members,
  128. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  129. Roger Hackstock: um, fees.
  130. Daniel Schaub: How do you manage 100 associations inside like different voices?
  131. Roger Hackstock: No, not 100 companies.
  132. Daniel Schaub: 100 companies.
  133. Roger Hackstock: 100 companies. From producers, traders,
  134. Roger Hackstock: to research organisations, to installers, to project developers,
  135. Roger Hackstock: 100 companies that
  136. Roger Hackstock: are active in the solar thermal business on a on
  137. Roger Hackstock: everyone on a on a different part of the
  138. Roger Hackstock: the value chain.
  139. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, there is the value chain, and they are they are sitting in the value chain on different,
  140. Roger Hackstock: uh, places, and all of them are members of the association.
  141. Daniel Schaub: Yeah, and and how is to coordinate such amount of
  142. Daniel Schaub: different entities?
  143. Roger Hackstock: We don't coordinate 100 companies. We do the what I the the four pillars
  144. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  145. Roger Hackstock: for the branch, and all members
  146. Roger Hackstock: profit from what we are doing. So if we change the framework conditions, is the framework condition for all.
  147. Roger Hackstock: If we do if we do public relation,
  148. Roger Hackstock: work,
  149. Roger Hackstock: then all companies profit from the positive public relation on solar thermal in media.
  150. Roger Hackstock: So it's it's not that we coordinate their work.
  151. Roger Hackstock: They are private entities.
  152. Roger Hackstock: But, uh,
  153. Roger Hackstock: the association is, uh If you If you're
  154. Roger Hackstock: you could think in the from the opposite side, if you do not have an association as a branch,
  155. Roger Hackstock: then there is no, uh, one
  156. Roger Hackstock: who, uh,
  157. Roger Hackstock: takes care on the framework conditions, on subsidies, on laws, on on nothing, yeah. There is no one who takes care,
  158. Roger Hackstock: yeah, that they favour your business,
  159. Roger Hackstock: yeah. There is no one who takes care that, uh,
  160. Roger Hackstock: the technology or your solution is communicated to the public.
  161. Roger Hackstock: No one,
  162. Roger Hackstock: yeah. And there is no one who takes care that there is a a common quality label.
  163. Roger Hackstock: So if if people are,
  164. Roger Hackstock: uh, stepping into the market and offering low quality,
  165. Roger Hackstock: then, uh,
  166. Roger Hackstock: you're powerless normally,
  167. Roger Hackstock: but it's powerful if there is a quality label, and also the
  168. Roger Hackstock: public authorities, they say, we want if you want a
  169. Roger Hackstock: subsidy or so, this quality label has to be fulfilled.
  170. Roger Hackstock: So only the good companies
  171. Roger Hackstock: fulfill the and they are in the association, the good companies.
  172. Daniel Schaub: And you maintain the prestige and the safety of the technology, so you grow, okay.
  173. Roger Hackstock: Right.
  174. Roger Hackstock: So this is and this This is the work of
  175. Roger Hackstock: Austria Solar, and it's the work of all
  176. Roger Hackstock: associations. All they have all the same work with different issues, but the work is the same.
  177. Rahul Mishra: Yeah, and you you have to also further engage with the, uh, European association and other country
  178. Roger Hackstock: European association is a bit different,
  179. Roger Hackstock: uh, because the it's mainly lobbying for, uh, the regulations. So there are this European regulations,
  180. Roger Hackstock: and it's important that solar thermal is included
  181. Roger Hackstock: in this favourably
  182. Roger Hackstock: included in the in this,
  183. Roger Hackstock: uh, legislation, in this regulations, European regulations.
  184. Roger Hackstock: And that's the reason why there are so many,
  185. Roger Hackstock: uh, associations
  186. Roger Hackstock: and lobbyists in Brussels,
  187. Roger Hackstock: because they they're doing exactly that.
  188. Roger Hackstock: To to help,
  189. Roger Hackstock: uh, to create and design favourable regulations for
  190. Roger Hackstock: the technology, for the solutions, and so.
  191. Roger Hackstock: And they they coordinate the national associations because Austria Solar is a national association,
  192. Roger Hackstock: but, uh, also,
  193. Roger Hackstock: the European association only has 25 members also or 20 members. It's only national associations are members, and some some big companies, but mainly,
  194. Roger Hackstock: it's an association of associations.
  195. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, so it's a umbrella organisation, you could say.
  196. Daniel Schaub: And and you're also in in
  197. Roger Hackstock: I'm in the umbrella organisation, I'm in the board of directors.
  198. Daniel Schaub: Aha.
  199. Roger Hackstock: Also.
  200. Daniel Schaub: And have you seen the similar challenges being in a European level and
  201. Daniel Schaub: national level?
  202. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, yeah, there's challenges are different because, uh,
  203. Roger Hackstock: uh, in on the European level to to to shape a regulation is different to shape as a national law.
  204. Roger Hackstock: These are different game level playing fields, yeah.
  205. Daniel Schaub: Okay.
  206. Roger Hackstock: It's only the board of directors is more a supervising task for the managing director there, and for the work there.
  207. Daniel Schaub: Okay, okay, yeah.
  208. Roger Hackstock: Because they're I'm not the managing director, I'm in the board of directors.
  209. Roger Hackstock: Austria Solar has also a board of directors.
  210. Roger Hackstock: Their,
  211. Roger Hackstock: uh, task also is supervising my work.
  212. Roger Hackstock: So I'm the Here, I'm the managing director. There, I'm the supervisor.
  213. Rahul Mishra: Roger, it's, uh, it's actually very important to understand also that why the association- You said associations are very important,
  214. Rahul Mishra: and mostly for most, uh, a lot of energy topics, we have associations.
  215. Rahul Mishra: But how do the different association coordinate with each other as well? Like,
  216. Rahul Mishra: because the energy topics are so overarching
  217. Roger Hackstock: Yeah.
  218. Rahul Mishra: and related.
  219. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, you could say in Austria, uh, since 5 years, there is a quite good cooperation
  220. Roger Hackstock: since we
  221. Roger Hackstock: uh, started to share an office. We have this Renewable Energy House at the Schwedenplatz
  222. Roger Hackstock: in Vienna.
  223. Daniel Schaub: Yeah.
  224. Roger Hackstock: It's right in front of the underground station,
  225. Roger Hackstock: so you're welcomed
  226. Roger Hackstock: also also the listeners are welcomed if they call us to to visit us at the Renewable Energy House,
  227. Roger Hackstock: where all associations are there, from wind to biomass, to photovoltaics, solar thermal,
  228. Roger Hackstock: uh, uh, small water power,
  229. Roger Hackstock: all of them, your biogas, we're all the the associations are there.
  230. Roger Hackstock: And and this this also helps that, uh, we, uh, it helps the group building,
  231. Roger Hackstock: really, and, uh, we are working hand in hand with other associations if there is a common issue.
  232. Roger Hackstock: Like the electri- electricity, all electricity associations are now working together on this, uh,
  233. Roger Hackstock: electricity law.
  234. Daniel Schaub: Yeah, we're going to go into that topic later.
  235. Roger Hackstock: Yeah. [laughter]
  236. Daniel Schaub: You have been in the, um, sector and from the association from 2002.
  237. Roger Hackstock: Mhm.
  238. Daniel Schaub: So,
  239. Daniel Schaub: what are the main difference that you have seen in the legal framework from na- from then
  240. Daniel Schaub: until now?
  241. Daniel Schaub: And what helped to to grow this
  242. Daniel Schaub: technology?
  243. Roger Hackstock: The biggest difference is that there a legal framework is there now and was not there then.
  244. Roger Hackstock: There was, for instance, there was no electricity law,
  245. Roger Hackstock: uh, that's,
  246. Roger Hackstock: uh, organised photovoltaics, for instance, it was not there. 2002, 2003, 2005, the first electricity law.
  247. Roger Hackstock: That uh, so in 2002, there they were some laws not there
  248. Roger Hackstock: that we needed urgently, and that are there already
  249. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  250. Roger Hackstock: now.
  251. Roger Hackstock: So this is the biggest difference, that framework conditions were
  252. Roger Hackstock: uh, were missed then.
  253. Daniel Schaub: So with clear rules, the industry can be deployed.
  254. Daniel Schaub: That's the point.
  255. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, rules are very important. If there are no rules, and if there is, for especially, you need rules that the the renewables become a business case.
  256. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  257. Roger Hackstock: Yeah. The rules by law,
  258. Roger Hackstock: uh, the national rules by law help
  259. Roger Hackstock: or decide if renewables,
  260. Roger Hackstock: independently of the renewable source, become a business case or not.
  261. Roger Hackstock: If electricity from the sun or from wind, or if heat from the sun or if biogas
  262. Roger Hackstock: is a business case or not, and if it's not a business case,
  263. Roger Hackstock: there is no
  264. Roger Hackstock: rise, no, uh, on the market, no market rise. There are no producers, there is no, uh, branch.
  265. Daniel Schaub: All of them. Did you receive subsidies with this technology for solar thermal back in the days?
  266. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, yeah, for solar thermal, there are
  267. Roger Hackstock: um, we had,
  268. Roger Hackstock: uh, state subsidies not Uh, we have nine, nine states.
  269. Roger Hackstock: You call it state, I think, yeah.
  270. Daniel Schaub: The regions.
  271. Roger Hackstock: Regions, yeah. Nine regions,
  272. Roger Hackstock: uh, and,
  273. Roger Hackstock: uh, the the nine regions, they some of them had subsidies since 30 years, since the '90s.
  274. Roger Hackstock: Yeah. Not all of them, but we had we had regional subsidies since the '90s, and, uh,
  275. Roger Hackstock: in the first, uh, decade from 2000 to 2010,
  276. Roger Hackstock: uh, there was a
  277. Roger Hackstock: solar thermal race of of all,
  278. Roger Hackstock: uh, provinces, uh, want to have subsidies, and and they are were arguing that we have the best subsidy, and then the next stepped in with a with a better subsidy.
  279. Roger Hackstock: That was really subsidy race,
  280. Daniel Schaub: Okay.
  281. Roger Hackstock: uh, in the first 10 years of the 21st century,
  282. Roger Hackstock: that was perfect. And then, uh, Vienna had the best subsidy, solar thermal, and all
  283. Roger Hackstock: regions in Austria had subsidies, and all regions did solar thermal campaigns,
  284. Roger Hackstock: even,
  285. Roger Hackstock: uh, campaigns with with very,
  286. Roger Hackstock: uh, active campaigns, with media and with workshops, events in the public and so on, and
  287. Rahul Mishra: Mostly for the households?
  288. Roger Hackstock: Mostly for households, right. Mostly for households,
  289. Roger Hackstock: uh, and that's really pushed solar thermal up to
  290. Roger Hackstock: uh, 2008-2009. These were the the the the largest years up to now with,
  291. Roger Hackstock: uh, 1,000 m² solar thermal installed a day.
  292. Roger Hackstock: in all over Austria.
  293. Daniel Schaub: Wow. For
  294. Rahul Mishra: For how many years?
  295. Daniel Schaub: A day.
  296. Roger Hackstock: 2008 and 2009, 2 years.
  297. Rahul Mishra: 2 years, wow.
  298. Roger Hackstock: 1,000 m², that that was the peak, that was the peak.
  299. Daniel Schaub: And how is now?
  300. Roger Hackstock: It's, uh, 1/4 of it.
  301. Daniel Schaub: Okay.
  302. Roger Hackstock: We We lost almost
  303. Roger Hackstock: 80%
  304. Roger Hackstock: uh, of our market since then in Austria with solar thermal, yeah.
  305. Roger Hackstock: It went down, down, down, down.
  306. Rahul Mishra: We will go into the detail of that,
  307. Rahul Mishra: uh, of that reason of going down. But, uh, if you could just touch it upon what the
  308. Roger Hackstock: One big reason is, uh, photovoltaics.
  309. Roger Hackstock: That means that photovoltaic became cheaper, cheaper, and, uh, the,
  310. Roger Hackstock: uh, the attention was shifted from solar thermal to photovoltaic, the attention of the people.
  311. Roger Hackstock: Everyone only was looking on photovoltaics. There also was movement there. It was from China, and it become cheaper and cheaper, and they had this fight. Is it okay that it comes from China? So it was always in the media, yeah,
  312. Roger Hackstock: with argues for and against.
  313. Roger Hackstock: Uh, and, uh, yeah, the the the whole,
  314. Roger Hackstock: uh, awareness of the people shifted to photovoltaic.
  315. Roger Hackstock: And this this really,
  316. Roger Hackstock: uh, solar thermal kind of fall off the table and photovoltaics,
  317. Roger Hackstock: uh, increased,
  318. Roger Hackstock: uh, largely, yeah. So this was main one main reason, yeah.
  319. Roger Hackstock: And everyone was talking about electricity.
  320. Roger Hackstock: That started
  321. Roger Hackstock: 20 years ago.
  322. Roger Hackstock: Everyone talks about electricity, and also solar thermal is not electricity.
  323. Daniel Schaub: Yeah.
  324. Roger Hackstock: And also the the wood boilers are not electricity. They are suffering from the same,
  325. Roger Hackstock: uh, bias
  326. Roger Hackstock: of the discussion, yeah.
  327. Daniel Schaub: How do you think have influenced your
  328. Daniel Schaub: technical background into
  329. Daniel Schaub: the
  330. Daniel Schaub: lobby or the legal discussion? Because we have heard that
  331. Daniel Schaub: from the to make political decisions,
  332. Daniel Schaub: you can have all the data on the table, but take a different decision.
  333. Daniel Schaub: So, how do you think that have shaped your
  334. Daniel Schaub: technical knowledge into the discussion?
  335. Roger Hackstock: Uh, it's not so much a technical issue.
  336. Roger Hackstock: A framework, uh, political framework conditions
  337. Roger Hackstock: don't really base so much on technical
  338. Roger Hackstock: data, technical decisions. It's more an economical or a social,
  339. Roger Hackstock: uh, decision
  340. Roger Hackstock: on, uh, if if you Which Which technologies fit in an ideology, or fit in a picture of an energy future,
  341. Roger Hackstock: yeah,
  342. Roger Hackstock: or fit in a in a,
  343. Roger Hackstock: uh, economical framework.
  344. Roger Hackstock: That, for instance, if you need subsidies, then it's the the question is, is there enough money there?
  345. Roger Hackstock: Public money
  346. Roger Hackstock: to,
  347. Roger Hackstock: uh, to offer
  348. Daniel Schaub: Finance.
  349. Roger Hackstock: the subsidies, to finance the subsidies, yeah.
  350. Roger Hackstock: So it's more These are more the pillars
  351. Roger Hackstock: that decide is if there and and is there pressure from the market.
  352. Roger Hackstock: So,
  353. Roger Hackstock: uh, also the the regions, they,
  354. Roger Hackstock: uh, raised,
  355. Roger Hackstock: uh, on the best solar thermal subsidy to have, because they realised that people want it. There was a really,
  356. Roger Hackstock: uh, an increase in attention of the people and in, uh, the, they were activated on solar thermal. There was a There was a market pressure, pressure from the market, the from from bottom-up market pressure, and the political,
  357. Roger Hackstock: uh, the politicians, they realised that.
  358. Daniel Schaub: Yeah.
  359. Roger Hackstock: That's they always react was what do What do politicians, yeah? Politicians react on what the people wants.
  360. Daniel Schaub: Okay.
  361. Roger Hackstock: And that's also what they say. And if the people want something, and they realise
  362. Roger Hackstock: there is something to gain for them, there is a wave
  363. Roger Hackstock: on a technology, it's increasing, and the people are talking about it, and everything, then they,
  364. Roger Hackstock: uh, surf on that wave, and then they try to,
  365. Roger Hackstock: uh, implement,
  366. Roger Hackstock: uh, framework conditions
  367. Roger Hackstock: that,
  368. Roger Hackstock: um,
  369. Roger Hackstock: that facilitate more of it.
  370. Daniel Schaub: More than technical, you have developed political
  371. Roger Hackstock: Yeah.
  372. Daniel Schaub: [laughter] skills.
  373. Roger Hackstock: Right, not so not so much, right.
  374. Daniel Schaub: And now you are in Brussels, maybe because of that, right? [laughter]
  375. Roger Hackstock: Hm,
  376. Roger Hackstock: no, it was,
  377. Roger Hackstock: uh, I mean,
  378. Roger Hackstock: in the board of directors consists of the members
  379. Roger Hackstock: of, uh, the association, so that consists of national associations. It's only six people, and there are, let's say, two tickets for associations, two tickets for industry, two tickets for project developers and so, yeah.
  380. Daniel Schaub: Okay.
  381. Roger Hackstock: And on the two tickets of,
  382. Roger Hackstock: uh, the associations,
  383. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  384. Roger Hackstock: I mean, I'm we are a member of the European Solar Thermal Industry Federation since
  385. Roger Hackstock: almost the start of Austria Solar.
  386. Daniel Schaub: Okay.
  387. Roger Hackstock: And now, you know, it's a matter of age, yeah. Now, they said, "Okay."
  388. Daniel Schaub: Experience.
  389. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, yeah, [laughter] experience. Let's let's let's [laughter]
  390. Roger Hackstock: Let's name it experience, yeah. It's a matter of experience, and now it was like, okay,
  391. Roger Hackstock: uh, they asked me several times, I said, "No, no." And now I said, "Yes," and
  392. Rahul Mishra: What's the current state right now in in the solar thermal?
  393. Rahul Mishra: Uh,
  394. Rahul Mishra: what is happening in the industry? And from your association perspective, where where do you see the industry moving? And do you have more,
  395. Rahul Mishra: uh, companies coming in to be partner in the association, or how do you feel the industry is reacting?
  396. Roger Hackstock: Yeah,
  397. Roger Hackstock: what happened during the last 10 years is, uh, that,
  398. Roger Hackstock: uh, the market shifted from the private households
  399. Roger Hackstock: or for housing and apartments to,
  400. Roger Hackstock: uh, business
  401. Roger Hackstock: applications, to, uh, process heat,
  402. Roger Hackstock: to district heat,
  403. Rahul Mishra: Mhm.
  404. Roger Hackstock: to cooling,
  405. Roger Hackstock: yeah. Also, solar cooling, yeah.
  406. Daniel Schaub: Okay.
  407. Roger Hackstock: And it shifted to to to to to other, and also the technology partly shifted. To we have this PVT, hybrid collectors, that produce electricity and heat in one collector,
  408. Daniel Schaub: Yeah, yeah.
  409. Roger Hackstock: yeah. So we have a technological or we have
  410. Roger Hackstock: we have large,
  411. Roger Hackstock: uh, square meters,
  412. Roger Hackstock: uh, collectors now we had not there 20 years ago, yeah. One collector with I don't know,
  413. Roger Hackstock: 20 m², one collector, yeah, for the district heating sites where there are thousands of square meters installed. So
  414. Roger Hackstock: this shift to other,
  415. Roger Hackstock: um,
  416. Roger Hackstock: demand groups or customer groups, yeah, this
  417. Roger Hackstock: happened during the last 10 years,
  418. Rahul Mishra: Mhm.
  419. Roger Hackstock: uh, largely. We also had, uh, new,
  420. Roger Hackstock: uh, subsidy schemes on that that helped from the Climate Fund,
  421. Roger Hackstock: the large-scale solar thermal,
  422. Roger Hackstock: uh, installation, uh, subsidies.
  423. Rahul Mishra: Mhm.
  424. Roger Hackstock: And this is what happened, that larger that we now we have dozens of, uh, solar process heat, solar district heat
  425. Roger Hackstock: installations that have not been there 20 years ago or 15 years ago, even, yeah.
  426. Roger Hackstock: So many larger with megawatt,
  427. Roger Hackstock: uh, installations. 1 MW is 1,400 m²
  428. Roger Hackstock: of solar thermal collectors is a power of 1 MW if the sun is shining
  429. Roger Hackstock: straight on it, yeah.
  430. Daniel Schaub: Yeah.
  431. Roger Hackstock: So so this is This is what happened. It shifted, the market shifted,
  432. Roger Hackstock: and also the activity shifted of the association.
  433. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  434. Roger Hackstock: That we have more, for instance, in in in October,
  435. Roger Hackstock: uh, I did send out the invitation today, on the 13th of October,
  436. Roger Hackstock: we have,
  437. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  438. Roger Hackstock: um,
  439. Roger Hackstock: an event in Innsbruck in Tyrol
  440. Rahul Mishra: Mhm.
  441. Roger Hackstock: on solar process heat for companies, for instance, yeah. Together with associations
  442. Roger Hackstock: on this field, the associations of companies, yeah.
  443. Daniel Schaub: Yeah.
  444. Roger Hackstock: But, uh, we had several of these events during the last 10 years
  445. Roger Hackstock: of to show companies
  446. Roger Hackstock: how to implement solar thermal in process heat for process heat, yeah, in their company.
  447. Roger Hackstock: Um, this shifted, and also, we did that also for utilities
  448. Roger Hackstock: to include We We worked out several tools that help utilities and and regional energy managers
  449. Roger Hackstock: to implement solar thermal in district heating systems, for instance, yeah.
  450. Roger Hackstock: Biomass district heating systems assisted by a solar thermal
  451. Roger Hackstock: collector field that fits in,
  452. Roger Hackstock: uh, heat in summer,
  453. Rahul Mishra: Mhm.
  454. Roger Hackstock: and reduces the need for biomass.
  455. Daniel Schaub: Yeah, I have a question that is not in the paper, but I I I always heard in in in Chile, we have a huge solar potential.
  456. Daniel Schaub: And there was a discussion in some point like, yeah, but solar thermal
  457. Daniel Schaub: you have the heat in summer when you kind of don't need to be heated, because you need it in winter.
  458. Daniel Schaub: So,
  459. Daniel Schaub: have you heard this kind of discussion? Is it also here? What would you say on on that?
  460. Roger Hackstock: This is, uh, always the prejudices, always the discussions, yeah,
  461. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  462. Roger Hackstock: that it's only the heating summer, but, uh, for instance, district heating,
  463. Roger Hackstock: uh, we have, uh, 2,300 district
  464. Roger Hackstock: heating systems in Austria, and 1,
  465. Roger Hackstock: 600 are running also in summer,
  466. Roger Hackstock: because, uh, they need hot water.
  467. Rahul Mishra: Yeah.
  468. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, I mean, if it's hot, you don't shower with cold water, yeah. You shower with a bit hot water, with it's when it's,
  469. Roger Hackstock: uh, bit warm water, not hot, but warm.
  470. Roger Hackstock: Uh, and,
  471. Roger Hackstock: uh, people need also,
  472. Roger Hackstock: uh, warm water in summer, so the district heating systems run also 1,600, 2/3, run also in summer with with less heat demand,
  473. Roger Hackstock: but they run also in summer. And,
  474. Roger Hackstock: uh, they have not only households on the grid. They have hospitals on the grid, for instance.
  475. Roger Hackstock: They have, uh, housing for elderly people on the grid, and they need they need warm water all during the year, yeah.
  476. Daniel Schaub: Okay.
  477. Roger Hackstock: And so it makes sense to have this,
  478. Roger Hackstock: uh, insta- it it means that, normally, the large-scale solar installation
  479. Roger Hackstock: runs in from June to September alone
  480. Roger Hackstock: with no added heat, yeah. So the boiler
  481. Roger Hackstock: is very bored,
  482. Roger Hackstock: [laughter] yeah.
  483. Rahul Mishra: Okay.
  484. Roger Hackstock: So they have nothing to do.
  485. Daniel Schaub: [laughter]
  486. Roger Hackstock: Um, and in winter, and in the in the
  487. Roger Hackstock: autumn and spring season, the solar installation assists
  488. Roger Hackstock: the the the boiler, yeah.
  489. Daniel Schaub: Okay.
  490. Roger Hackstock: So if there is a sunny day, then it heats up the buffer tank
  491. Roger Hackstock: to, I don't know, 20-30°, and the boiler only has to do the difference between this 40 per- uh, the
  492. Roger Hackstock: 30° and the net temperature.
  493. Daniel Schaub: Yeah.
  494. Roger Hackstock: That also saves
  495. Roger Hackstock: uh, resources and and and biomass, and, yeah.
  496. Rahul Mishra: Sure.
  497. Rahul Mishra: How how much of the demand of uh, this this thing heating is it's
  498. Rahul Mishra: covered by the solar thermal in Austria?
  499. Roger Hackstock: Yeah. Normally, and you can see it on our website, we have a gallery
  500. Roger Hackstock: with,
  501. Roger Hackstock: uh, on solarwaerme.at, a gallery on 80 different applications,
  502. Roger Hackstock: also a couple of district heating, and then you can see
  503. Roger Hackstock: that,
  504. Roger Hackstock: uh, in average, the,
  505. Roger Hackstock: uh, annual,
  506. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  507. Roger Hackstock: uh, coverage, solar coverage of the of the total net demand is around 15-20%. That's a very usual number. You can you can see at the,
  508. Roger Hackstock: uh, practical examples.
  509. Roger Hackstock: And in summer, 100%.
  510. Daniel Schaub: Yeah.
  511. Roger Hackstock: So in July, August,
  512. Roger Hackstock: it's 100% often.
  513. Roger Hackstock: Uh, and over over the whole year, uh, the overall,
  514. Roger Hackstock: uh, annual,
  515. Roger Hackstock: uh, coverage, solar coverage is around 15-20%.
  516. Daniel Schaub: Okay.
  517. Roger Hackstock: It's the usual one.
  518. Daniel Schaub: Yeah.
  519. Roger Hackstock: Usual number.
  520. Daniel Schaub: We were,
  521. Daniel Schaub: um, looking for some,
  522. Daniel Schaub: uh, campaigns with with with solar thermal, and we came across with the SHE,
  523. Daniel Schaub: SHE's program, which is a solar roof mandate?
  524. Daniel Schaub: Does it have some kind of, uh, goal
  525. Roger Hackstock: Solar- SHE is Solar Heat Europe.
  526. Daniel Schaub: Yeah, Solar Rooftop Mandate.
  527. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, the Solar Rooftop Mandate, that's an, uh, European regulation. That's part of the EPBD.
  528. Roger Hackstock: There is this European Performance Building Directive,
  529. Roger Hackstock: EPBD, yeah.
  530. Roger Hackstock: And, uh,
  531. Roger Hackstock: the EPBD, this this building directive that's in force already,
  532. Roger Hackstock: has different paragraphs and different issues. One issue is a,
  533. Roger Hackstock: uh, rooftop mandate, so that all new roofs
  534. Roger Hackstock: have to be, uh, or mandated, have to, uh, install
  535. Roger Hackstock: a solar technology. Can be either PV or solar thermal. So we are fighting for
  536. Roger Hackstock: the result that it's not only PV.
  537. Daniel Schaub: Aha.
  538. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, because if you do nothing, it's only PV, yeah.
  539. Rahul Mishra: Exactly.
  540. Roger Hackstock: Because everyone is talking about PV, and electricity Needs heat, but talks about electricity, yeah?
  541. Daniel Schaub: Yeah.
  542. Roger Hackstock: And now the,
  543. Roger Hackstock: uh, all,
  544. Roger Hackstock: um,
  545. Roger Hackstock: all all states, all nations, all 27 member states,
  546. Roger Hackstock: have time until May next year
  547. Roger Hackstock: to transfer this regulation to national law.
  548. Daniel Schaub: The transposition.
  549. Roger Hackstock: The transposition, they they have to transpose it from, uh, European law to national law in their building regulations.
  550. Roger Hackstock: And so all, also in Austria,
  551. Roger Hackstock: all regions and all states,
  552. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  553. Roger Hackstock: are changing their building regulations now
  554. Roger Hackstock: in in these months,
  555. Roger Hackstock: yeah, in in this year to fulfill the regulation until May next year.
  556. Daniel Schaub: Okay, and
  557. Roger Hackstock: To include this, a solar solar roof mandate in the existing building regulations.
  558. Daniel Schaub: Okay, and so, in order to do that, do you work with, um,
  559. Daniel Schaub: energy community?
  560. Roger Hackstock: Uh, we work in Austria, it's a special case. In Austria, we have, uh,
  561. Roger Hackstock: an organisation that's called OIB,
  562. Roger Hackstock: Austrian Institute for,
  563. Roger Hackstock: uh, Building Regulations, OIB,
  564. Roger Hackstock: Österreichisches Institut für Bautechnik,
  565. Roger Hackstock: uh, and they,
  566. Roger Hackstock: uh, worked out a proposal
  567. Roger Hackstock: which then will be taken over by the regions. Yeah, so they don't do it themselves, but they work with the OIB
  568. Roger Hackstock: to to create a national common,
  569. Roger Hackstock: uh, new building regulations from 2026 onwards,
  570. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  571. Roger Hackstock: to fulfill the building regulation parts of, uh,
  572. Roger Hackstock: uh, issues of the of the European regulation.
  573. Roger Hackstock: And this is already done.
  574. Roger Hackstock: This is
  575. Roger Hackstock: about to be published in the next
  576. Daniel Schaub: Weeks.
  577. Roger Hackstock: few next weeks, yeah. We were involved in that
  578. Roger Hackstock: to to secure that the building regulation is,
  579. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  580. Roger Hackstock: uh, as it is meant by the European building regulation is not only implemented with PV.
  581. Rahul Mishra: Yeah.
  582. Roger Hackstock: And that's meant, that's it's even in in the building regulation, the European regulation, there is this,
  583. Roger Hackstock: uh, mandate where there is mentioned especially
  584. Roger Hackstock: and are explicitly that it should not only favour PV.
  585. Roger Hackstock: That's explicitly in the in the European regulation, but you have to take care that it will be like that also on the national level, yeah. It's not automatically, yeah.
  586. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  587. Roger Hackstock: Yeah.
  588. Roger Hackstock: But it's it's about to be enforced,
  589. Roger Hackstock: uh, the the
  590. Roger Hackstock: this common template for the regions, yeah.
  591. Daniel Schaub: And what does it mean that? Uh, how is translated? Like every new building have to must have
  592. Roger Hackstock: Yeah.
  593. Daniel Schaub: something? PV
  594. Roger Hackstock: It's, uh, it's in the in the European building directive, there is, um,
  595. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  596. Roger Hackstock: there is a kind of step-by-step implementation plan in the in the directive,
  597. Roger Hackstock: yeah. So first,
  598. Roger Hackstock: uh, only public buildings are obliged
  599. Roger Hackstock: to have the obligation to install,
  600. Roger Hackstock: only only new public buildings.
  601. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  602. Roger Hackstock: And, uh,
  603. Roger Hackstock: one year later It's a plan up to 2030, yeah. And one year later, only,
  604. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  605. Roger Hackstock: uh, existing public buildings, but only large existing public buildings, and, uh, commercial buildings, and only new commercial buildings. And a year later,
  606. Roger Hackstock: the smaller buildings, and also the new buildings. And so it's it starts with
  607. Daniel Schaub: It's progressive.
  608. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, yeah. It it Is it It's a progressive, step-by-step implementation plan
  609. Roger Hackstock: that's,
  610. Roger Hackstock: uh, fixed and formulated in the directive.
  611. Daniel Schaub: Maybe from your perspective, from a association, maybe in a broader view in the region,
  612. Daniel Schaub: uh, how is the,
  613. Daniel Schaub: uh, CEE region
  614. Roger Hackstock: Mhm.
  615. Daniel Schaub: making with solar thermal?
  616. Roger Hackstock: Poorly. [laughter]
  617. Daniel Schaub: Poorly?
  618. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, they are doing poorly with solar thermal. There is, for instance, no association in Hungary.
  619. Daniel Schaub: Okay.
  620. Roger Hackstock: There is no association in in Croatia, so as I know. No in Romania,
  621. Roger Hackstock: none in Bulgaria. There are no
  622. Daniel Schaub: Why, why could it be?
  623. Roger Hackstock: no.
  624. Roger Hackstock: Uh, it's a bit We are a bit wondering also on why it doesn't work out. It's it's
  625. Roger Hackstock: we don't we don't really understand. Partly,
  626. Roger Hackstock: it is because there are, uh, framework conditions missing, as I told before,
  627. Roger Hackstock: that are favouring the the development of a branch, of a market, yeah.
  628. Roger Hackstock: These,
  629. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  630. Roger Hackstock: uh, framework conditions are partly not there in favourable framework conditions like subsidies and so in in in Eastern Europe. Even once in
  631. Roger Hackstock: Budapest in Hungary to help a national association to be born, that was a kind of birth helper,
  632. Daniel Schaub: Yeah.
  633. Roger Hackstock: uh, and and I was there, and argued why it's necessary,
  634. Roger Hackstock: uh, to have this, uh, association,
  635. Roger Hackstock: but they only
  636. Roger Hackstock: they were discussing it a couple of months, and then the idea died down and died down again, and I don't know why.
  637. Daniel Schaub: Unknown.
  638. Roger Hackstock: It's a bit mysterious why.
  639. Rahul Mishra: Even in today's scenario, you've said about 20% of district heating
  640. Roger Hackstock: Yeah.
  641. Rahul Mishra: goes via,
  642. Roger Hackstock: Yeah.
  643. Rahul Mishra: via the solar thermal.
  644. Roger Hackstock: Could be covered by solar thermal, yeah, yeah.
  645. Rahul Mishra: So they're missing out that potential.
  646. Roger Hackstock: And even in in Serbia and in in Bosnia and Herzegovina,
  647. Roger Hackstock: there are several,
  648. Roger Hackstock: uh, cities
  649. Roger Hackstock: that are discussing, and even planning,
  650. Roger Hackstock: large this solar,
  651. Roger Hackstock: uh, thermal district heating systems.
  652. Roger Hackstock: So the the the issue is there. There is even an industry interest interest there, there are projects there,
  653. Roger Hackstock: but there is no association.
  654. Daniel Schaub: Okay.
  655. Roger Hackstock: Yeah.
  656. Daniel Schaub: And
  657. Roger Hackstock: And it's o- only only this segment
  658. Roger Hackstock: with the with the,
  659. Roger Hackstock: uh, district heating.
  660. Daniel Schaub: Do you think that this, uh,
  661. Daniel Schaub: European mandate could foster it?
  662. Roger Hackstock: That's the hope.
  663. Roger Hackstock: [laughter]
  664. Daniel Schaub: Okay.
  665. Roger Hackstock: That that's that's the hope we have, yeah.
  666. Daniel Schaub: Okay.
  667. Roger Hackstock: That's the hope. I mean, there is, uh, domestic hot water and and domestic heating,
  668. Roger Hackstock: uh, solar thermal market also in Eastern Europe countries, but as a very
  669. Roger Hackstock: small market.
  670. Roger Hackstock: There are companies there and so, but there is no branch and no
  671. Roger Hackstock: everyone does his business alone, and
  672. Roger Hackstock: very small and
  673. Roger Hackstock: uh, not industrial.
  674. Rahul Mishra: Roger, going forward,
  675. Rahul Mishra: uh, what's
  676. Rahul Mishra: what's in the future for solar thermal going forward? Vienna still has a lot of gas-powered,
  677. Rahul Mishra: uh, district heating network.
  678. Rahul Mishra: How how do we decarbonise? Do you think the solar thermal can be the answer going forward as well?
  679. Rahul Mishra: Uh,
  680. Rahul Mishra: do you see it increasing in the in a mixed scenario?
  681. Roger Hackstock: Sometimes, I say when we, uh, have, uh, reached
  682. Roger Hackstock: in Austria, the 100%
  683. Roger Hackstock: green electricity target 2030,
  684. Roger Hackstock: yeah,
  685. Roger Hackstock: then, uh,
  686. Roger Hackstock: many people will wake up and say, "Oh,
  687. Roger Hackstock: and still we are importing fossil fuels. Why?
  688. Roger Hackstock: Uh, because we reached the target we were talking about 10 years, yeah? And it was the only target in our mind, and the only awareness, and now we reached it, and, uh,
  689. Roger Hackstock: what happened that we still import solar, we a- still import fossil fuels?" And then we realise, "Oh,
  690. Roger Hackstock: we have a share of 60-70%
  691. Roger Hackstock: in,
  692. Roger Hackstock: uh, fossil fuels in heating,
  693. Roger Hackstock: and 90% in in mobility.
  694. Roger Hackstock: And, oh,
  695. Roger Hackstock: uh, we should, uh, cope with heat
  696. Roger Hackstock: and mobility now, because these problems are untackled
  697. Roger Hackstock: mostly, yeah. But we will wake up when we have,
  698. Roger Hackstock: uh, uh, reached
  699. Roger Hackstock: the other target where which everyone is talking about.
  700. Roger Hackstock: Probably, probably, 2030,
  701. Roger Hackstock: some people will start to think about, "Hm,
  702. Roger Hackstock: hm, we didn't tackle the bigger problem." That's a [laughter]
  703. Daniel Schaub: [laughter]
  704. Roger Hackstock: And that, did This could be a This could help solar thermal.
  705. Daniel Schaub: And would you say that with solar thermal could be cover all the district heating
  706. Daniel Schaub: demand?
  707. Roger Hackstock: Uh, you could cover,
  708. Roger Hackstock: uh, 20- 15-20% without the seasonal storage. If you have no sea- seasonal storage,
  709. Roger Hackstock: and we don't have this large yet,
  710. Roger Hackstock: we don't have this large installations in Austria, this large examples, practical examples,
  711. Roger Hackstock: with,
  712. Roger Hackstock: uh, seasonal storage, because with seasonal storage, you can cover up to 50%
  713. Roger Hackstock: of a city,
  714. Daniel Schaub: Okay.
  715. Roger Hackstock: yeah.
  716. Rahul Mishra: You mean the thermal storage, thermal heat could be stored, and
  717. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, it's stored over months.
  718. Roger Hackstock: You have a seasonal You have a much larger installation,
  719. Roger Hackstock: and a seasonal storage with 100,000s of
  720. Roger Hackstock: cubic metres of hot water, yeah, digged into the ground.
  721. Roger Hackstock: It's a it's a it's a like a
  722. Daniel Schaub: Insulated
  723. Roger Hackstock: swimming pool, yeah, yeah, right.
  724. Roger Hackstock: Uh, and, uh, with a swimming insulation on it, you can walk on it, yeah, I already did that in Denmark.
  725. Roger Hackstock: It's spooky if you if you
  726. Roger Hackstock: walk on a lightly moving
  727. Roger Hackstock: surface,
  728. Roger Hackstock: yeah, 20-30-50 metres
  729. Roger Hackstock: on the from the shore
  730. Roger Hackstock: on this storage, and you know,
  731. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  732. Roger Hackstock: 30 cm below you, there is water with 80°.
  733. Daniel Schaub: Oh, wow.
  734. Roger Hackstock: It's a bit spooky, yeah, the feeling, yeah, I did that. [laughter]
  735. Rahul Mishra: [laughter]
  736. Roger Hackstock: I did that, yeah.
  737. Roger Hackstock: Then the large solar installation
  738. Roger Hackstock: feeds,
  739. Roger Hackstock: uh, in summer,
  740. Roger Hackstock: much more heat than is needed, yeah,
  741. Rahul Mishra: Sure.
  742. Roger Hackstock: uh, into the storage.
  743. Roger Hackstock: And then in end of September,
  744. Roger Hackstock: uh, beginning of October when heating season starts, there is a storage with,
  745. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  746. Roger Hackstock: 300,000 m³ of 80° hot water, and then you fit this into the district heating grid, and it takes a time until this is,
  747. Roger Hackstock: uh, used up.
  748. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  749. Roger Hackstock: And you also use large heat pumps
  750. Roger Hackstock: to that that step in if the temperature
  751. Roger Hackstock: is, let's say, 5 or 10° too low for the grid.
  752. Roger Hackstock: So it's still hot, but it's too low for the grid. The grid has 90°, and you have 70° out of the storage.
  753. Roger Hackstock: Then the the 20° difference
  754. Roger Hackstock: the will be heated by heat pump, a large heat pump.
  755. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  756. Roger Hackstock: And so you can use it over months
  757. Roger Hackstock: further,
  758. Roger Hackstock: the the,
  759. Roger Hackstock: uh, the storage, and in in in spring, in February, at the beginning, mid of February,
  760. Roger Hackstock: uh, or end of February, the storage is down to, let's say, 20-
  761. Roger Hackstock: 30°.
  762. Roger Hackstock: But then the sun starts to shine again, and in March, already in March, end of February, beginning of March,
  763. Roger Hackstock: the storage is heated up again slowly,
  764. Roger Hackstock: and the game starts again in October.
  765. Daniel Schaub: Okay, so the seasonal storage, you mean how many months?
  766. Daniel Schaub: 3-4 months?
  767. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, you can during during winter, during you even can take out heat, uh, at,
  768. Roger Hackstock: uh, Christmas
  769. Roger Hackstock: from this seasonal storage.
  770. Daniel Schaub: Wow.
  771. Roger Hackstock: Yeah. It's empty in in January.
  772. Daniel Schaub: And is it the only technology that you are
  773. Daniel Schaub: evaluating, just, uh, insulated tanks or also salts?
  774. Roger Hackstock: It's the most mature technology, the most ripe, as a ma- mature technology,
  775. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  776. Roger Hackstock: uh, most
  777. Roger Hackstock: uh, developed technology, yeah. There are other storages like with with with, uh,
  778. Roger Hackstock: chemical storages with latent heat, and so, and with wax and other other stuff.
  779. Roger Hackstock: But
  780. Roger Hackstock: we have these storages in in,
  781. Roger Hackstock: uh, laboratories
  782. Roger Hackstock: since
  783. Roger Hackstock: decades,
  784. Roger Hackstock: yeah,
  785. Rahul Mishra: That's long.
  786. Roger Hackstock: and they,
  787. Roger Hackstock: uh, never,
  788. Roger Hackstock: uh, found their way to the market. So this this,
  789. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  790. Roger Hackstock: this hard shift from laboratory to market,
  791. Roger Hackstock: they never did it until now, and we are urgently,
  792. Roger Hackstock: desperately, waiting for this technologies because this would be
  793. Roger Hackstock: the seasonal storage on a smaller scale.
  794. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  795. Roger Hackstock: You could use it for a building, for instance, yeah.
  796. Roger Hackstock: But, uh, in a building,
  797. Roger Hackstock: you would need not this seasonal storage with water,
  798. Roger Hackstock: but with,
  799. Roger Hackstock: uh, zeolite or other materials.
  800. Roger Hackstock: Uh, it's a chemical storage,
  801. Daniel Schaub: Okay.
  802. Roger Hackstock: but that never made it to the market yet.
  803. Rahul Mishra: You touched a very interesting point when you said that, uh,
  804. Rahul Mishra: uh, 10- 10-20° that is still remaining
  805. Rahul Mishra: from the insulated water can go and can be used by heat pump. So the very interesting thing that we want to also ask you about that
  806. Rahul Mishra: the heat pump is dominating the sector now for the for the heat.
  807. Rahul Mishra: And do you think that solar thermal and heat are complementary to each other or
  808. Rahul Mishra: or you think that going forward that it it will get phased out?
  809. Roger Hackstock: I realised how complemented,
  810. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  811. Roger Hackstock: solar thermal and heat pumps are
  812. Roger Hackstock: when I,
  813. Roger Hackstock: uh, screened our gallery with the 80 examples
  814. Roger Hackstock: because I wanted to find out with which technologies, solar thermal in our examples is combined, with heat pumps, with district heating, with solar with with
  815. Roger Hackstock: with,
  816. Roger Hackstock: uh, wood boilers.
  817. Roger Hackstock: And then, surprisingly, I realised that
  818. Roger Hackstock: let's say, 60 out of our
  819. Roger Hackstock: 80,
  820. Roger Hackstock: uh, examples are combined with heat pumps.
  821. Roger Hackstock: So it's it's a very valid com- com- combination, as you can see in our gallery,
  822. Roger Hackstock: different examples. It it's, independently if this is a hotel,
  823. Roger Hackstock: if this is a,
  824. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  825. Roger Hackstock: residential building, if this is a company,
  826. Roger Hackstock: different sizes, different applications,
  827. Roger Hackstock: there are heat pumps everywhere combined with solar thermal.
  828. Roger Hackstock: And, uh, one,
  829. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  830. Roger Hackstock: one quite,
  831. Roger Hackstock: uh, favourable combination is, for instance, if you have a ground heat
  832. Roger Hackstock: uh, heat a heat pump using ground heat with with,
  833. Roger Hackstock: uh, with boreholes,
  834. Roger Hackstock: yeah. Then in summer,
  835. Roger Hackstock: the solar thermal is used to recover the boreholes, because, normally, you take out in winter energy from the boreholes to heat your house, then the borehole
  836. Roger Hackstock: gets energy again from the earth around,
  837. Roger Hackstock: yeah, but slowly.
  838. Roger Hackstock: And if you take
  839. Roger Hackstock: more out of it
  840. Roger Hackstock: in winter, then
  841. Roger Hackstock: it then can,
  842. Roger Hackstock: uh, move again to, or can recover by the earth in summer,
  843. Roger Hackstock: then in couple of years, you have there an ice cube,
  844. Roger Hackstock: yeah,
  845. Roger Hackstock: because it gets colder, colder. Each winter, it gets colder than in the winter before, yeah.
  846. Daniel Schaub: Okay.
  847. Roger Hackstock: And you want you need this for heating your house.
  848. Roger Hackstock: And, uh, you can prevent it by recovering
  849. Roger Hackstock: the boreholes by,
  850. Roger Hackstock: uh, solar heat, so that feed in solar heat to the boreholes to heat it up
  851. Roger Hackstock: in summer,
  852. Roger Hackstock: so that the heat pump
  853. Roger Hackstock: finds a warm borehole in October,
  854. Rahul Mishra: Mhm.
  855. Roger Hackstock: yeah,
  856. Daniel Schaub: Okay.
  857. Roger Hackstock: warmer than normal.
  858. Roger Hackstock: It's not at 80°, it's,
  859. Roger Hackstock: uh, it's then, let's say, 25° instead of 10°.
  860. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, so it's a warmer borehole,
  861. Roger Hackstock: and you can take out this,
  862. Roger Hackstock: uh, energy until it gets 10° as it would have had before,
  863. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  864. Roger Hackstock: and then you can reduce this temperature, as you would do normally, to I don't know, 4° or so,
  865. Roger Hackstock: until the end of the heating season, yeah. So, so the combination
  866. Roger Hackstock: of solar thermal, heat pumps, and boreholes is very common.
  867. Rahul Mishra: What is the range of, uh, heat that we get
  868. Rahul Mishra: from solar thermal, the max?
  869. Roger Hackstock: Uh, normal collectors,
  870. Roger Hackstock: uh, you get, uh, operating heat 90°,
  871. Roger Hackstock: let's say, yeah.
  872. Daniel Schaub: Okay.
  873. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, and you get into the into the storage, and you mix it with cold water when you use it. I mean, you you you have a storage with 90°,
  874. Roger Hackstock: and then,
  875. Roger Hackstock: uh, you use only 50° or so at a shower and so, and you mix it with cold water.
  876. Roger Hackstock: But, uh, 90°
  877. Roger Hackstock: is the maximum temperature,
  878. Roger Hackstock: running temperature of normal flat plate collectors. There are also this other technologies, this heat heat pipe
  879. Roger Hackstock: collectors. You might know this, these glass tubes,
  880. Daniel Schaub: Yeah.
  881. Roger Hackstock: evacuated heat pipe collectors and because of the vacuum,
  882. Daniel Schaub: But they're super efficient, so.
  883. Roger Hackstock: they're super efficient and you have then, let's say, 120-130°.
  884. Daniel Schaub: Yeah.
  885. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, operating temperature.
  886. Daniel Schaub: Yeah.
  887. Roger Hackstock: With the same efficiency
  888. Roger Hackstock: than the flat plate collector with 90°.
  889. Daniel Schaub: Yeah, actually in in Chile, they were thinking about, uh, forbidding them
  890. Daniel Schaub: because they were so efficient
  891. Roger Hackstock: Yeah.
  892. Daniel Schaub: that, hey, people were risky to to be burned.
  893. Rahul Mishra: Oh.
  894. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But but it's only You shouldn't
  895. Roger Hackstock: you shouldn't come into contact with with the
  896. Roger Hackstock: the solar thermal circuit. I mean, it's, uh, you should only come to contact with what comes out of the storage.
  897. Daniel Schaub: Yeah.
  898. Roger Hackstock: And then the storage is never 130°, yeah, so.
  899. Rahul Mishra: Mhm.
  900. Rahul Mishra: You You briefly also mention that there are new
  901. Rahul Mishra: kind of industries coming for process heat
  902. Roger Hackstock: Yeah.
  903. Rahul Mishra: via solar thermal. What what are those kind of industries?
  904. Roger Hackstock: The the most favourable,
  905. Roger Hackstock: uh, industrial branches are food and beverage,
  906. Rahul Mishra: Mhm.
  907. Roger Hackstock: yeah,
  908. Roger Hackstock: chemical, because often they have to evaporate something by 100°
  909. Roger Hackstock: or they need they have processes with 80, 90, 100, 100°. Concrete,
  910. Roger Hackstock: because these companies who who build,
  911. Roger Hackstock: uh, concrete walls
  912. Roger Hackstock: on not on-site, but build it in the in the,
  913. Roger Hackstock: uh, in in ready-done concrete walls with doors and and windows and everything,
  914. Roger Hackstock: on in in their factory, and then bring it to the to the building site, no?
  915. Roger Hackstock: This This is done also with 50°, 70° to to harden the the concrete, yeah.
  916. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  917. Roger Hackstock: Coating, for instance. So if you coat something, if you if you put you paint and coat
  918. Roger Hackstock: metallic parts, metal metal parts, for instance,
  919. Roger Hackstock: and put a put a white colour in it and so, and then this bath,
  920. Roger Hackstock: this this,
  921. Roger Hackstock: uh, paint bath has to be warm. Also, afterwards, to dry
  922. Roger Hackstock: the
  923. Roger Hackstock: coated metal parts, you have to dry it. Also that you need, then you need
  924. Roger Hackstock: let's say, 70°, 80° or so, hot hot air,
  925. Roger Hackstock: and this these are all the applications
  926. Roger Hackstock: for solar thermal, perfect application for solar thermal.
  927. Daniel Schaub: And your thesis, that's why you're asking.
  928. Roger Hackstock: [laughter] Yeah, yeah, it's for you to You have your perfect applications for for solar thermal with that, yeah.
  929. Daniel Schaub: Yeah. I Well, time is flying.
  930. Roger Hackstock: And and you come from Chile yourself?
  931. Daniel Schaub: Chile, yeah.
  932. Roger Hackstock: Yeah. And then you might have heard about the the mine, the the the solar thermal installations at their minings,
  933. Daniel Schaub: The mining for
  934. Roger Hackstock: very high located on 4,000 m latitude or so, yeah. And these are the one of the largest installations in in the of the world, yeah?
  935. Daniel Schaub: Yeah.
  936. Roger Hackstock: In Chile, there had been
  937. Roger Hackstock: 15 years ago also, a large installation, and now it was added by a second large installation in Chile. There is a new installation,
  938. Roger Hackstock: big installation. And it was funny,
  939. Roger Hackstock: uh, how,
  940. Roger Hackstock: uh, it came to that instal- in in installations, because, uh,
  941. Daniel Schaub: How was it?
  942. Roger Hackstock: one one of the,
  943. Roger Hackstock: uh, that's an interesting short story because, uh, one of the leading experts in Austria,
  944. Roger Hackstock: uh, Werner Weiss from the AEE INTEC, he was one of the founders of AEE INTEC in Gleisdorf,
  945. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  946. Roger Hackstock: uh, he met financial guys in New York at a conference, yeah.
  947. Roger Hackstock: And they said, "Well, we're from the from the finance business,
  948. Roger Hackstock: we have we don't have any clue on so- What What are you doing? Ah, solar thermal. Ah,
  949. Roger Hackstock: we don't have any clue on solar thermal, but where is solar thermal,
  950. Roger Hackstock: uh, needed? I mean, tell us the 3-4 preconditions where solar thermal is needed." And he thought,
  951. Roger Hackstock: they have no idea of solar thermal, and they asking me, no, that's total unserious. "Well, I tell them," yeah. And he said,
  952. Roger Hackstock: "Uh, where, uh, there is, uh, a lot of sun,
  953. Roger Hackstock: there is a heat demand with a low temperature, high fuel costs,
  954. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  955. Roger Hackstock: yeah, and a very hot- and very high demand
  956. Roger Hackstock: all over the year, yeah. These four preconditions are perfect." And they said,
  957. Roger Hackstock: "Thank you very much," and went away. One
  958. Roger Hackstock: 1 1/2 year or 1 year later, he met them again at a conference,
  959. Roger Hackstock: and they told him, "We found the perfect,
  960. Roger Hackstock: uh, application for what you told
  961. Daniel Schaub: Mine in
  962. Roger Hackstock: us." He even didn't remember that he told them.
  963. Roger Hackstock: [laughter] And they said,
  964. Roger Hackstock: "Mining in Chile."
  965. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  966. Roger Hackstock: And that was perfect, because nobody
  967. Roger Hackstock: in the solar thermal business would have thought of mining in Chile, nobody.
  968. Roger Hackstock: And it was the reason that they were
  969. Roger Hackstock: out of the business, they were thinking out of the box, and they only had this four pillars,
  970. Roger Hackstock: and they they screened the economy of South South America
  971. Roger Hackstock: of of fulfilling the free of these four pillars. They just screened the economy, all branches, everything,
  972. Roger Hackstock: without without any,
  973. Roger Hackstock: uh, prejud- prejudices,
  974. Roger Hackstock: just just, you know, I don't know nothing, I just have these four pillars, and I screen the economy. And they found mining matches.
  975. Roger Hackstock: And so they found these installations, yeah.
  976. Daniel Schaub: That's fine.
  977. Roger Hackstock: And that was perfect, because it needs It shows that we we, for the market, often we need,
  978. Roger Hackstock: uh, people thinking out of the box, we need people
  979. Roger Hackstock: step not not invol- are are not involved in the solar thermal business, but come from outside
  980. Roger Hackstock: and and have a new,
  981. Roger Hackstock: fresh look on solar thermal. That's what they did.
  982. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  983. Roger Hackstock: And that's the reason why there are these mining installations
  984. Daniel Schaub: Very good story, thank you for sharing.
  985. Roger Hackstock: in in Chile. [laughter]
  986. Daniel Schaub: I am curious about how the How do they do it with the water? Because they're in the desert,
  987. Roger Hackstock: Yeah.
  988. Daniel Schaub: the quality of water is super hard, full of miner- minerals.
  989. Daniel Schaub: So was it a challenge? Do you know how was Yeah, yeah, they have to prepare the water. Yeah, they have to prepare, but it's a closed circuit, you know. The solar thermal circuit is Just has to prepare once the,
  990. Roger Hackstock: uh, needed amount of water,
  991. Roger Hackstock: and then this circulates the the,
  992. Roger Hackstock: uh, this this prepared water,
  993. Roger Hackstock: uh, or or treated water,
  994. Roger Hackstock: uh, circulates in the, yeah.
  995. Daniel Schaub: It's closed.
  996. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, it's closed. It's a closed loop, yeah.
  997. Daniel Schaub: Yeah, okay.
  998. Daniel Schaub: I was saying that time is is is flying, but we have, uh, another interesting question that we wanted to know. For example,
  999. Daniel Schaub: we are talking about, um, electrification.
  1000. Roger Hackstock: Mhm.
  1001. Daniel Schaub: But with other
  1002. Daniel Schaub: interviews, we have realised the challenge of the infrastructure capacity,
  1003. Daniel Schaub: right? So have you made some studies how solar thermal could help, for example,
  1004. Daniel Schaub: uh, to heat pumps to provide the heating,
  1005. Daniel Schaub: uh, demand, not stressing
  1006. Roger Hackstock: Mhm.
  1007. Daniel Schaub: the electr- electrical system?
  1008. Daniel Schaub: Do you have some
  1009. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, this is one of our main arguments for solar thermal in this,
  1010. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  1011. Roger Hackstock: in this,
  1012. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  1013. Roger Hackstock: sphere of electricity and the electricity, uh, grid problems, that we say we take stress out of the energy system. We say On the one hand, we take stress out of peak loads
  1014. Roger Hackstock: for heat,
  1015. Roger Hackstock: because it's not necessary to do it by electricity. We can do it by solar thermal. And stress out of the,
  1016. Roger Hackstock: uh, resource demand for biomass.
  1017. Roger Hackstock: Because we also have a limited,
  1018. Roger Hackstock: uh, amount of biomass,
  1019. Roger Hackstock: uh, available if if everyone wants to need biomass. If companies want to need biomass more for higher temperatures and so, so the demand will rise, and there is there is
  1020. Roger Hackstock: much biomass there, but there is a limited resource
  1021. Roger Hackstock: mainly, yeah. And, uh, we take also stress out of the biomass resource base
  1022. Roger Hackstock: that we say in in summer, biomass is not burned.
  1023. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  1024. Roger Hackstock: It's stored for winter.
  1025. Roger Hackstock: So this is this this is one of the main arguments for solar thermal, that we take out of, uh, stress out of the energy system.
  1026. Daniel Schaub: Yeah, because we we came across with the number of 70%
  1027. Daniel Schaub: less grid stress.
  1028. Daniel Schaub: Would it be correct or is too much?
  1029. Roger Hackstock: Where did you get the number from? I I don't have a number, honestly.
  1030. Roger Hackstock: Uh,
  1031. Roger Hackstock: I've never seen a number of that, uh,
  1032. Roger Hackstock: you mean by solar thermal, 70% less stress?
  1033. Daniel Schaub: Less stress, yeah.
  1034. Roger Hackstock: It would be interesting. Uh, uh, I would I would be interested in the calculation.
  1035. Roger Hackstock: [laughter] Yeah.
  1036. Daniel Schaub: Okay, we can go maybe in another in interview.
  1037. Roger Hackstock: Yeah.
  1038. Daniel Schaub: We are now in a geopolitical situation with Russia, the gas dependency.
  1039. Daniel Schaub: How do you see the solar thermal role in the whole region to reduce the the dependency of Russian gas?
  1040. Roger Hackstock: Yeah.
  1041. Roger Hackstock: In Austria is, uh, one other strong argument for or the second strong argument for solar thermal is that there is no need for energy import, and no need for technological import.
  1042. Daniel Schaub: You could cover it
  1043. Daniel Schaub: completely.
  1044. Roger Hackstock: No, no, I mean, that that means, uh, not that solar thermal reduces the or to operate solar thermal, there is no need for energy import. So if you have more solar thermal installations, we don't need more energy from the outside like with biomass, you might import it, or electricity, you have to import it if you need more electricity. If you need if you use more solar thermal,
  1045. Roger Hackstock: then it's delivered by the sun. There is no energy necessity for energy imports to operate it,
  1046. Roger Hackstock: yeah, as with other sources, yeah.
  1047. Roger Hackstock: So this is one one argument. And another argument is there is no it becomes more and more important that solar thermal technology does not come from China.
  1048. Roger Hackstock: Photovoltaics and others, wind,
  1049. Daniel Schaub: Photovoltaics, yeah.
  1050. Roger Hackstock: come from from China, not everything. Solar thermal
  1051. Roger Hackstock: is we produce 10 times more solar thermal collectors than we use in Austria. We export 90%.
  1052. Roger Hackstock: So we help to decarbonise other countries
  1053. Daniel Schaub: Austria is a manufacturer of
  1054. Roger Hackstock: with solar thermal.
  1055. Daniel Schaub: solar thermal? Oh, wow.
  1056. Roger Hackstock: Yeah.
  1057. Roger Hackstock: Austria is one of the main manufacturers worldwide of of,
  1058. Roger Hackstock: uh, only topped by China, of solar thermal.
  1059. Roger Hackstock: Uh, and we also have one of the largest solar thermal collector producers, Greenonetec
  1060. Roger Hackstock: in in in Carinthia.
  1061. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  1062. Roger Hackstock: Uh, but we in in Austria, we produce each year,
  1063. Roger Hackstock: uh, 10 times the amount of solar collectors we install in Austria. 90%, we export. So there is no solar collector from China, and also not no component for the solar collector from China. So,
  1064. Roger Hackstock: this is a technological, independent,
  1065. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  1066. Roger Hackstock: uh, product. That that's becomes more and more important.
  1067. Roger Hackstock: Over years, we were, uh, arguing to reduce Russian gas imports by solar thermal. Now, that's done,
  1068. Roger Hackstock: because Russian gas is done.
  1069. Roger Hackstock: [laughter]
  1070. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  1071. Roger Hackstock: We have no more Russian gas in Austria. That's very interesting that, uh, over decades,
  1072. Roger Hackstock: it was always the quote that it's impossible. We have these contracts the next 40 years, and it is possible impossible to step out.
  1073. Roger Hackstock: Now, uh, Putin did us a favour, and stopped the,
  1074. Roger Hackstock: uh, gas deliverance,
  1075. Roger Hackstock: yeah, deliveries, and so we are free of Russian gas directly. We have it indirectly by LNG,
  1076. Roger Hackstock: because it goes by LNG via other countries to Austria, as we know,
  1077. Roger Hackstock: but we have other sources too. Uh, we have USA and so, but, uh, we need to reduce that to zero
  1078. Roger Hackstock: in the next 14 years until 2040. Austria wants to become,
  1079. Roger Hackstock: uh, carbon neutral.
  1080. Daniel Schaub: Carbon.
  1081. Roger Hackstock: That means, carbon neutral means no gas and no oil. And solar thermal,
  1082. Roger Hackstock: uh, in the overall,
  1083. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  1084. Roger Hackstock: uh, demand heating demand overall heating demand, up to 150°
  1085. Roger Hackstock: in Austria, our, uh, roadmap calculations show that,
  1086. Roger Hackstock: uh, let's say, 20%
  1087. Roger Hackstock: of the whole energy of the whole heat demand, up to 150
  1088. Roger Hackstock: uh, degree, can be covered by solar thermal.
  1089. Roger Hackstock: In theory. Practically, we have today 2%.
  1090. Roger Hackstock: So 10 times.
  1091. Daniel Schaub: So, so,
  1092. Roger Hackstock: So we have We have a We have a
  1093. Daniel Schaub: room.
  1094. Roger Hackstock: We have a hope lack
  1095. Daniel Schaub: Okay.
  1096. Roger Hackstock: of 10 times of what we do now.
  1097. Rahul Mishra: It is very interesting what you said, also Austria being the, uh, being the largest producer after China.
  1098. Roger Hackstock: Mhm.
  1099. Rahul Mishra: It will be in interest of Austrian policymakers that the regional,
  1100. Rahul Mishra: the other regional countries in Central and Eastern Europe,
  1101. Rahul Mishra: specially they have a poor solar thermal, as you said,
  1102. Rahul Mishra: that they they lobby about it.
  1103. Rahul Mishra: That they they make mandates that that could really accelerate,
  1104. Roger Hackstock: Mhm.
  1105. Rahul Mishra: uh, the adoption of solar thermal, at least on the level that Austria already has.
  1106. Roger Hackstock: Yeah.
  1107. Roger Hackstock: That's what we do by Solar Heat Europe, by the umbrella association.
  1108. Rahul Mishra: Okay.
  1109. Roger Hackstock: So we have contacts,
  1110. Roger Hackstock: uh, in other countries. We also have very,
  1111. Roger Hackstock: uh, active communication and contacts to Serbia, to,
  1112. Roger Hackstock: uh, Czech Republic, to Slovakia, to, uh, Eastern Europe countries, because we want to help them to install,
  1113. Roger Hackstock: uh, or found associations and help the market rise and so, because this is the role of an association. This is a task of the European association,
  1114. Roger Hackstock: but you need you need in these countries, you need,
  1115. Roger Hackstock: uh, the right people responding. You need a response in this, and there was still
  1116. Roger Hackstock: no really response,
  1117. Roger Hackstock: uh, respondent,
  1118. Roger Hackstock: actors that overtook the task, and said, "We want to,
  1119. Roger Hackstock: uh, uh,
  1120. Roger Hackstock: develop, uh, solar thermal market, and found an association and help us."
  1121. Roger Hackstock: We would be open to help, but you need someone who wants to be helped.
  1122. Daniel Schaub: If you know that it's a
  1123. Roger Hackstock: [laughter]
  1124. Daniel Schaub: It's that
  1125. Rahul Mishra: Yeah.
  1126. Daniel Schaub: opportunity.
  1127. Roger Hackstock: Yeah.
  1128. Roger Hackstock: It's so.
  1129. Rahul Mishra: Where are the current 90% of the exports going?
  1130. Roger Hackstock: Mainly Germany, France, and Italy.
  1131. Rahul Mishra: Okay.
  1132. Roger Hackstock: Mainly.
  1133. Roger Hackstock: Also other countries, but mainly.
  1134. Daniel Schaub: So it's all market to cover Eastern Europe.
  1135. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, yeah, the mainly, yeah, yeah, mainly main market is in Europe.
  1136. Rahul Mishra: And if you could also, because it's such an interesting fact, so could also tell us the economic factors,
  1137. Rahul Mishra: uh, of installing a solar thermal compared to heat pump,
  1138. Roger Hackstock: Mhm.
  1139. Rahul Mishra: for example? What What are the economical,
  1140. Rahul Mishra: uh, pros and cons of, uh, installing solar thermal?
  1141. Roger Hackstock: Uh, compared to heat pump and and wood boiler, so it's different difficult to say because you don't,
  1142. Roger Hackstock: uh, change your oil boiler or gas boiler to a heat pump because of the,
  1143. Roger Hackstock: uh, payback period, payback time. Nobody does that,
  1144. Roger Hackstock: but you change it before because of security reasons. Because you say, "I want to step out of this weird price game,
  1145. Roger Hackstock: yeah, this international,
  1146. Roger Hackstock: uh, issues, and, uh, I want to to to change to,
  1147. Roger Hackstock: uh, a a renewable source." And, uh, so they change to heat pump, for instance. It's not so much because of they count the payback period, yeah. In solar thermal, everyone counts payback period, yeah. And the normal payback period of a subsidised,
  1148. Roger Hackstock: uh, solar thermal is of a hot water,
  1149. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  1150. Roger Hackstock: uh, solar thermal,
  1151. Roger Hackstock: uh, system,
  1152. Roger Hackstock: uh, it's below 10%, uh, below 10 years
  1153. Rahul Mishra: Mhm.
  1154. Roger Hackstock: of subsidised, uh, system. And for a,
  1155. Roger Hackstock: uh, hot water and heating system, it's larger,
  1156. Roger Hackstock: uh, it's 10 to 15 years. That that are the topic topic numbers, yeah. And if it's not subsidised, it's longer. But, uh, with subsidised system,
  1157. Roger Hackstock: it's like that, yeah.
  1158. Daniel Schaub: If you Now, thinking in the future,
  1159. Daniel Schaub: uh, which,
  1160. Daniel Schaub: um, law or regulation or legal framework would you recommend some to some
  1161. Daniel Schaub: countries in Eastern Europe to foster,
  1162. Daniel Schaub: um, solar thermal technology?
  1163. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, uh, mainly a subsidy. An investment,
  1164. Roger Hackstock: uh, subsidy, so the a percentage of the investment like
  1165. Roger Hackstock: 30%
  1166. Roger Hackstock: of the or 40% of the investment is subsidised.
  1167. Roger Hackstock: This is a powerful tool. It's also what we had in Austria. That also helped that,
  1168. Roger Hackstock: uh, there was a
  1169. Roger Hackstock: uh, a subsidy,
  1170. Roger Hackstock: uh, obligation with other subsidies. So that meant if you build a if you, uh, build,
  1171. Roger Hackstock: uh, a multi-family house, for instance, yeah,
  1172. Roger Hackstock: uh, and you get a subsidy for that,
  1173. Roger Hackstock: then we had it couple of year in all of Austria, almost in all provinces,
  1174. Roger Hackstock: uh, that,
  1175. Roger Hackstock: uh, you only get a subsidy if you
  1176. Roger Hackstock: install a solar thermal installation. It was a kind of solar thermal obligation with the subsidy, subsidy obligation.
  1177. Roger Hackstock: It was not a building directive,
  1178. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  1179. Roger Hackstock: so that you you are not allowed to build it. You could build it with without solar thermal,
  1180. Roger Hackstock: but,
  1181. Daniel Schaub: You didn't get subsidy.
  1182. Roger Hackstock: you didn't, you know, you you didn't get subsidy if you did not install solar thermal.
  1183. Daniel Schaub: But only that technology.
  1184. Roger Hackstock: Solar solar It Yeah, yeah,
  1185. Daniel Schaub: No
  1186. Roger Hackstock: yeah, yeah, yeah, it was only with solar thermal, yeah. This was
  1187. Daniel Schaub: So it was a
  1188. Roger Hackstock: These were the golden times. I was already Managing
  1189. Daniel Schaub: [laughter]
  1190. Roger Hackstock: Director then, and I was I was,
  1191. Roger Hackstock: uh, I must admit I was involved in,
  1192. Roger Hackstock: uh, the installation of these,
  1193. Roger Hackstock: uh, regulations
  1194. Roger Hackstock: [laughter] as a lobbyist.
  1195. Roger Hackstock: But it's years ago.
  1196. Roger Hackstock: [laughter]
  1197. Daniel Schaub: That was a good win for you.
  1198. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, it was a good win. It was a good win, and it really pushed the market, yeah.
  1199. Daniel Schaub: Yeah.
  1200. Roger Hackstock: Because they wanted to have the subsidy.
  1201. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  1202. Roger Hackstock: And so they installed a solar thermal, yeah.
  1203. Rahul Mishra: But has there been, um,
  1204. Rahul Mishra: You You've been in, uh, solar thermal for so many decades, so had there been incremental innovation as well in solar thermal?
  1205. Roger Hackstock: Uh, yes, there had been more innovations,
  1206. Roger Hackstock: uh, in the at the start. So from the first
  1207. Roger Hackstock: 20-30 years of solar thermal, from
  1208. Roger Hackstock: 1970 to 2000,
  1209. Roger Hackstock: uh, different parts of solar thermal, yeah, so not only the collectors and the storages, but also to to pack it to systems,
  1210. Roger Hackstock: where the collector fits to the storage, fits to the control unit and everything, yeah.
  1211. Roger Hackstock: That happened in the '90s.
  1212. Roger Hackstock: Uh, and, uh, afterwards, there were these larger collectors for the,
  1213. Roger Hackstock: uh, larger installations,
  1214. Roger Hackstock: because that reduces the installation time on-site.
  1215. Rahul Mishra: Mhm.
  1216. Roger Hackstock: Reduces if you come with a large collector, then it's it's you can you can install
  1217. Daniel Schaub: Just mount it.
  1218. Roger Hackstock: 2,000 m² a day,
  1219. Roger Hackstock: yeah, because with this large,
  1220. Roger Hackstock: uh, collectors
  1221. Roger Hackstock: and, uh, prefabricated.
  1222. Daniel Schaub: Like plug and play.
  1223. Roger Hackstock: Plug and play, right. More plug and play,
  1224. Roger Hackstock: uh, and,
  1225. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  1226. Roger Hackstock: uh, yeah, there had been some control units with weather forecast, but only some that is didn't really roll out.
  1227. Roger Hackstock: Uh,
  1228. Roger Hackstock: and the storages became more insulated, and there were technical
  1229. Roger Hackstock: uh, what what happens in the storage to get the heat in and out, yeah, that has been improved,
  1230. Roger Hackstock: yeah, partly, technical improvements.
  1231. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  1232. Roger Hackstock: Uh,
  1233. Roger Hackstock: yeah. And and, uh, PVT, the hybrid collectors, the new kind of collector that,
  1234. Roger Hackstock: uh, looks like a PV collector from the outside,
  1235. Roger Hackstock: and has,
  1236. Roger Hackstock: uh, heat,
  1237. Roger Hackstock: um, pipes on the back,
  1238. Roger Hackstock: and takes the removes the heat from the from the,
  1239. Roger Hackstock: uh, PV.
  1240. Daniel Schaub: That increase, uh,
  1241. Roger Hackstock: That then increases the PV system, and it helps to get out a lot of heat, which is made
  1242. Roger Hackstock: which is indirectly produced by the sun, because the sun heats the PV,
  1243. Roger Hackstock: uh, panel, and this produces electricity, but also heat.
  1244. Roger Hackstock: And the heat is not used normally, yeah. And you can use this heat with this combined hybrid collectors. So the these are Last year,
  1245. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  1246. Roger Hackstock: the the amount of last year, we doubled with the newly installed PVT collectors, we doubled the already existing amount of,
  1247. Roger Hackstock: uh, PVT collectors. So
  1248. Roger Hackstock: uh, we had, uh, 4,000,
  1249. Roger Hackstock: uh, PVT square metres PVT collectors there, and we added 4,000 last year. So what we had already
  1250. Roger Hackstock: during all the years, all the history,
  1251. Roger Hackstock: we added in one we doubled it in one year. That was last year.
  1252. Daniel Schaub: And
  1253. Roger Hackstock: I mean, it's all not 4,000 m², 8,000 m², it's not Austria,
  1254. Roger Hackstock: but,
  1255. Roger Hackstock: uh, uh, it's, uh, it's not the whole of Austria, I mean, but,
  1256. Roger Hackstock: uh, it's not a big market yet, but the dynamics are impressive.
  1257. Daniel Schaub: Are they being manufactured in
  1258. Roger Hackstock: In Austria, yeah.
  1259. Daniel Schaub: in The hybrid ones?
  1260. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
  1261. Daniel Schaub: So you acquire the cells, the PV cells,
  1262. Roger Hackstock: Right.
  1263. Daniel Schaub: and and you integrated here?
  1264. Roger Hackstock: Genau. It's it's only,
  1265. Roger Hackstock: uh, uh, uh, they they they compile it to the It's it's
  1266. Daniel Schaub: Integration of
  1267. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, it's the integration, yeah, yeah, yeah.
  1268. Rahul Mishra: Yeah.
  1269. Rahul Mishra: Why I asked about the integration
  1270. Roger Hackstock: As you you you only assemble it. That was I was looking It's only assembling here in Austria, yeah.
  1271. Daniel Schaub: Okay.
  1272. Rahul Mishra: Uh, why I asked about the innovation in the solar thermal field is that
  1273. Rahul Mishra: as the as the technology progress, people tend to
  1274. Rahul Mishra: not like the subsidy part in in installation of of of the technology.
  1275. Rahul Mishra: But, uh, the technology is already mature, have been there for a couple of decades. You think that,
  1276. Rahul Mishra: uh,
  1277. Rahul Mishra: because for for the subsidy screen, uh, uh, schemes,
  1278. Rahul Mishra: why it's still needed from your rationale that the subsidised subsidies are
  1279. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, because fossil fuels are
  1280. Roger Hackstock: still too cheap.
  1281. Rahul Mishra: Mhm.
  1282. Roger Hackstock: Still too cheap. And if you if you,
  1283. Roger Hackstock: uh, count on the payback rate,
  1284. Roger Hackstock: and all what what is cheaper, the heat from solar thermal or the heat from fossil fuels, then still fossil fuels
  1285. Roger Hackstock: are equal or win.
  1286. Roger Hackstock: So if fossil fuels are not expensive enough, then
  1287. Roger Hackstock: you need subsidies,
  1288. Roger Hackstock: uh, because, otherwise, the people decide by money.
  1289. Roger Hackstock: One aspect I didn't mention on innovation is that what changed,
  1290. Roger Hackstock: uh, what I realised is,
  1291. Roger Hackstock: let's say, 10-15 years ago, the companies came and said, "I have a gas boiler. I want to reduce my gas bill.
  1292. Roger Hackstock: Can you help me with solar thermal to reduce the gas bill?"
  1293. Daniel Schaub: Okay.
  1294. Roger Hackstock: Now, this is over.
  1295. Roger Hackstock: They are coming now and say, "I have a gas boiler,
  1296. Roger Hackstock: and can you help me to remove the gas boiler?"
  1297. Daniel Schaub: Okay.
  1298. Roger Hackstock: This is different.
  1299. Roger Hackstock: This is since 5 years that's different, yeah? Remove the gas boiler, and that means that, uh, solar thermal companies,
  1300. Roger Hackstock: together with project developers, started,
  1301. Roger Hackstock: uh, to and what was what was an important innovation, start started to offer,
  1302. Roger Hackstock: uh, total solutions where solar thermal is part
  1303. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  1304. Roger Hackstock: with with ambient heat using ambient heat, uh, no, no, using using using waste heat, using waste heat in a company, then using solar thermal heat, using, uh, heat pump,
  1305. Roger Hackstock: uh, and and to combine that to a system
  1306. Daniel Schaub: This was
  1307. Roger Hackstock: that that, uh, exchanges or replaces the gas boiler
  1308. Roger Hackstock: with the same service
  1309. Roger Hackstock: on electricity, even electricity with photovoltaics, with hybrid collectors and only photovoltaics. So the the companies,
  1310. Roger Hackstock: if they consult now, or if they contact a consultant now, they are not asking to reduce the energy bill,
  1311. Roger Hackstock: and that needs new solutions. And this was one of the innovation in the solar thermal business, that they realised that we have It's not
  1312. Roger Hackstock: It's not anymore,
  1313. Roger Hackstock: uh, enough to offer a solar thermal collector or a solar collector with with buffer tank solar thermal system. That's not in if you are in the business,
  1314. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  1315. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  1316. Roger Hackstock: uh, business world with the companies, yeah,
  1317. Roger Hackstock: then,
  1318. Roger Hackstock: uh, you need, uh, totally, you need full solutions.
  1319. Roger Hackstock: You need,
  1320. Roger Hackstock: uh, all-in-one solutions where solar thermal is part of it. And that's what they are offering.
  1321. Daniel Schaub: Wow.
  1322. Roger Hackstock: That's new, that's new. The system perspective, so we came in the last
  1323. Roger Hackstock: 5 years,
  1324. Roger Hackstock: we came from a from a,
  1325. Roger Hackstock: uh, technological perspective to a system perspective, systemical
  1326. Roger Hackstock: perspective.
  1327. Roger Hackstock: And that really changed also the the whole active business activities.
  1328. Rahul Mishra: Do you see,
  1329. Rahul Mishra: uh, just moving on to
  1330. Rahul Mishra: young people getting into the sector,
  1331. Rahul Mishra: that getting employment in the solar thermal business?
  1332. Rahul Mishra: What do you think that are the young people coming, and how do you want to attract?
  1333. Rahul Mishra: Uh, because
  1334. Roger Hackstock: Yeah.
  1335. Rahul Mishra: there's so many other technologies as well going on, so,
  1336. Rahul Mishra: uh, where do you see if,
  1337. Rahul Mishra: uh, if this sector is able to attract the talent, and what needs to be done for that?
  1338. Roger Hackstock: Yeah.
  1339. Roger Hackstock: Uh, we are actually asked,
  1340. Roger Hackstock: uh, regularly
  1341. Roger Hackstock: on jobs for solar thermal by young people,
  1342. Roger Hackstock: but we have to admit that the market is going down,
  1343. Roger Hackstock: and doesn't really offer jobs, but we are we we struggle to keep the jobs,
  1344. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  1345. Roger Hackstock: yeah, with solar thermal, because of the market going down, because it was overtook by electricity, PV,
  1346. Roger Hackstock: heat pumps, and everything, yeah. So,
  1347. Roger Hackstock: unfortunately, the solar thermal branch not really has to offer,
  1348. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  1349. Roger Hackstock: many jobs.
  1350. Daniel Schaub: This is a question that we are asking our guests,
  1351. Roger Hackstock: Mhm.
  1352. Daniel Schaub: uh,
  1353. Daniel Schaub: to see where they
  1354. Daniel Schaub: would,
  1355. Daniel Schaub: uh, invest, for example. If you would have 100 million euros,
  1356. Daniel Schaub: what would you do to accelerate energy transition or to foster solar thermal technology?
  1357. Roger Hackstock: Um, I would start a contracting,
  1358. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  1359. Roger Hackstock: uh, company, and offering of solar thermal process heat for companies,
  1360. Roger Hackstock: uh, where I can finance everything.
  1361. Roger Hackstock: And, uh, they I offer service,
  1362. Roger Hackstock: uh, by by by heat, pay by heat, so that they, like contracting, that they pay to me the next 10-15 years, but I have
  1363. Roger Hackstock: I have to have the 100 100 million to to for the upfront investment.
  1364. Daniel Schaub: Yes.
  1365. Roger Hackstock: I would put it into upfront investments of promising solar heat, solar process heat,
  1366. Roger Hackstock: uh, applications.
  1367. Roger Hackstock: And also to to start this company
  1368. Roger Hackstock: with with the 10 best people. I would I would acquire the best people in the market. I would give them high salaries,
  1369. Roger Hackstock: and I need the money for that, yeah.
  1370. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  1371. Roger Hackstock: Without earning enough money in the first 3 years, let's say. That's a business kind of business plan, but afterwards it will go.
  1372. Daniel Schaub: Yeah.
  1373. Roger Hackstock: That's what I will do with 100 million.
  1374. Daniel Schaub: That's, uh, ESCO business.
  1375. Roger Hackstock: Right, yeah. I would I would make the best and biggest ESCO on solar thermal
  1376. Roger Hackstock: in Europe.
  1377. Daniel Schaub: Okay. If we get 100 [laughter]
  1378. Roger Hackstock: Then contact me.
  1379. Roger Hackstock: [laughter]
  1380. Roger Hackstock: Contact me, yeah. And and, uh, I also offer you two jobs.
  1381. Rahul Mishra: [laughter]
  1382. Roger Hackstock: Because then I will need good people, yeah?
  1383. Daniel Schaub: Yeah, yeah.
  1384. Roger Hackstock: Good staff, yeah, and I propose that you're part of a
  1385. Roger Hackstock: probably good staff.
  1386. Rahul Mishra: We are glad to hear, uh, we are very glad to know that once we have 100 million, we will have a job.
  1387. Roger Hackstock: [laughter]
  1388. Daniel Schaub: And maybe thinking also in the future for new professionals who are
  1389. Daniel Schaub: starting, finishing studies,
  1390. Roger Hackstock: Mhm.
  1391. Daniel Schaub: and getting into this field of solar thermal,
  1392. Roger Hackstock: Mhm.
  1393. Daniel Schaub: uh, technology, let's say.
  1394. Daniel Schaub: Uh,
  1395. Daniel Schaub: which advice would you give them?
  1396. Roger Hackstock: [sighs] Well, I would,
  1397. Roger Hackstock: uh, ask a project developer for a job, for for the people, because I think that's the most,
  1398. Roger Hackstock: uh, interesting field,
  1399. Roger Hackstock: uh, to work at a project developer that offers heating solutions for companies,
  1400. Roger Hackstock: Mhm.
  1401. Roger Hackstock: or also for, let's say,
  1402. Roger Hackstock: uh, larger housing,
  1403. Roger Hackstock: uh, projects or so, yeah.
  1404. Roger Hackstock: So the heating solution Even with multi-family houses, uh, not not single- not single houses with 10 10,
  1405. Roger Hackstock: uh, uh,
  1406. Roger Hackstock: uh, uh, flats also, but but a a housing
  1407. Roger Hackstock: a district, yeah.
  1408. Rahul Mishra: Mhm.
  1409. Roger Hackstock: That's very interesting what you can do there. So companies who are doing the house technic,
  1410. Roger Hackstock: uh, for,
  1411. Roger Hackstock: uh, these,
  1412. Roger Hackstock: uh, district housing district developments,
  1413. Roger Hackstock: uh, or for companies, the the the house technic or designing the energy systems for them.
  1414. Roger Hackstock: That's really interesting. If I would be young,
  1415. Roger Hackstock: uh, again, I think
  1416. Roger Hackstock: I would do that, I would step into that, because that's that's the that's the new hot stuff,
  1417. Roger Hackstock: uh, at the moment.
  1418. Daniel Schaub: Now we wanted to share with the community that you just, uh,
  1419. Daniel Schaub: released
  1420. Roger Hackstock: I wrote in, uh, I released a new book, yeah. In February.
  1421. Daniel Schaub: this year? Yeah.
  1422. Rahul Mishra: So please tell us about it.
  1423. Daniel Schaub: What, uh, yeah, what is it about? What are you telling? Well, is in German?
  1424. Roger Hackstock: It's in German, yeah. It's in German, is a warning, it's in German.
  1425. Daniel Schaub: But what is the topic? What it
  1426. Roger Hackstock: Yeah,
  1427. Roger Hackstock: uh, the the title says, "How to save the world,
  1428. Roger Hackstock: uh, without worrying all the time.
  1429. Roger Hackstock: Without worrying so much." What seems to be a contradiction, yeah?
  1430. Rahul Mishra: Mhm.
  1431. Roger Hackstock: Because saving the world always worries people. But that's the reason why I I have written this book, because,
  1432. Roger Hackstock: uh, the last 30 years, we tried to save the world with worrying, with with,
  1433. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  1434. Roger Hackstock: uh, desperation and with saying, "Oh, it becomes so bad, and we have to do something," and with with anxious. And this did not work out.
  1435. Rahul Mishra: Mhm.
  1436. Roger Hackstock: The the the the emissions are rising and rising, despite all that. So I said, "Okay, if this didn't work,
  1437. Roger Hackstock: let's try with,
  1438. Roger Hackstock: uh, patience and humour." Because we have I think we have one problem that,
  1439. Roger Hackstock: uh, if you talk about a climate neutral world,
  1440. Roger Hackstock: it's hardly a picture of hope.
  1441. Roger Hackstock: It's a picture of fear, because if I if I talk with people, if I, "Yeah, and when we have a a climate neutral world," then they often tell me immediately two things they are not allowed to do then.
  1442. Roger Hackstock: Are they not eating meat and flying and everything, yeah. So it's a place of fear, yeah? It's a future of fear, a climate neutral world, because there is And in my For me, it's totally different. For me, is a climate neutral world a place of hope,
  1443. Roger Hackstock: yeah, where I long for.
  1444. Roger Hackstock: I have a longing for that, yeah. And I think that with climate neutral- neutrality,
  1445. Roger Hackstock: we miss the longing for a climate neutral world, and I, uh, want to help for this longing, and I make want to
  1446. Roger Hackstock: to help that we have fun with with,
  1447. Roger Hackstock: uh, striving for a climate neutral world. That's something
  1448. Roger Hackstock: that I want to go for, because
  1449. Roger Hackstock: I'm I'm,
  1450. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  1451. Roger Hackstock: I'm looking for it, yeah, because I'm I'm longing for it. But yeah, that that that's the book.
  1452. Daniel Schaub: Okay, yeah.
  1453. Roger Hackstock: So that the book gives hope, and makes hope, and a good feeling for a climate neutral,
  1454. Roger Hackstock: uh, future.
  1455. Daniel Schaub: Yeah, thank you for the gift. It's, uh,
  1456. Daniel Schaub: motivation to learn German.
  1457. Roger Hackstock: [laughter] Yes.
  1458. Daniel Schaub: Practice. Practice, yeah.
  1459. Rahul Mishra: Thank you, Roger, for giving your time.
  1460. Roger Hackstock: Thank you for being invited, yeah.
  1461. Daniel Schaub: Yeah, and we didn't touch upon the new solar taxes that we're going to save it for other episode
  1462. Roger Hackstock: Yeah.
  1463. Daniel Schaub: because this is, uh, another hot topic.
  1464. Roger Hackstock: It's another hot topic.
  1465. Daniel Schaub: But in electricity market, but yeah. Thank you for for coming.
  1466. Rahul Mishra: But before we let let you go,
  1467. Rahul Mishra: uh, we we are getting,
  1468. Rahul Mishra: uh, with the book, you said that we we should think about,
  1469. Rahul Mishra: uh, not the negative part of it. What do you think about Trump in all of this?
  1470. Roger Hackstock: I have to laugh about Trump, honestly, yeah.
  1471. Daniel Schaub: With humour, do you?
  1472. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, with humour, because,
  1473. Roger Hackstock: uh, on the one hand, because, uh, he,
  1474. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  1475. Roger Hackstock: uh, I had to laugh when, uh, he decided that his,
  1476. Roger Hackstock: um,
  1477. Roger Hackstock: minister for,
  1478. Roger Hackstock: uh,
  1479. Roger Hackstock: defense, and the minister for home security, I think, and the leader of the the the CEO of the,
  1480. Roger Hackstock: uh, Environmental Protection Agency, the three people, they flew to Alaska in the cold with with really,
  1481. Roger Hackstock: uh, thick,
  1482. Roger Hackstock: uh, clothing, yeah, and were standing there in front of journalists to explain that now they stop all,
  1483. Roger Hackstock: uh, all regulations, yeah, and now they will,
  1484. Roger Hackstock: uh, they will get new oil and gas out of the ground,
  1485. Roger Hackstock: yeah, now. And Trump said, "He There, in Alaska, we have sources, and now we tap this new sources. And, uh, now we're open every- we we give licences for that, and all,
  1486. Roger Hackstock: uh, large
  1487. Roger Hackstock: oil corporations in the US are invited to take to buy that licence to,
  1488. Roger Hackstock: uh, get the
  1489. Roger Hackstock: oil and gas out of this,
  1490. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  1491. Roger Hackstock: rich Alaska grounds." And what happened? After 2 months and even it's still the case, not one of the oil companies,
  1492. Roger Hackstock: uh, applied for the licence.
  1493. Daniel Schaub: No way. And
  1494. Roger Hackstock: No.
  1495. Daniel Schaub: how so?
  1496. Roger Hackstock: Now, because it's, uh, it's economically nonsense,
  1497. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  1498. Roger Hackstock: yeah? Because there is no infrastructure there.
  1499. Roger Hackstock: They would have to build the complete infrastructure, the wells,
  1500. Daniel Schaub: Ah, all the, yeah.
  1501. Roger Hackstock: all the pipelines, all the streets, they have no infrastructure there, the housing, nothing,
  1502. Roger Hackstock: to get this oil out, and you have to pay all that, yeah?
  1503. Roger Hackstock: And,
  1504. Roger Hackstock: uh, USA already, since 10 years, is oil exporter.
  1505. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  1506. Roger Hackstock: Yeah, they are export This That means that they have enough oil.
  1507. Roger Hackstock: That means that if they buy a licence, they have to produce oil which they sell in the world in the world market
  1508. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  1509. Roger Hackstock: with you never know the price. Highly risky,
  1510. Daniel Schaub: Mhm.
  1511. Roger Hackstock: yeah. And so they decided that's a nice idea of an old man, but we won't do that.
  1512. Roger Hackstock: I must laugh that that, uh,
  1513. Roger Hackstock: with with ideology, you can't change reality,
  1514. Roger Hackstock: yeah. He can say, "My ideology is oil and gas, and we will now, against all Democrats and all other Greens and so, we will tap the oil sources in Alaska. All Greens and all,
  1515. Roger Hackstock: uh, senseful people are against it. We do it, because we make America great again, yeah. And we sell this,
  1516. Roger Hackstock: uh, licence, but nobody wants to buy it." I must laugh, yeah, because, uh, yeah, and that that's that's that's what he does all the time.
  1517. Roger Hackstock: So, yeah.
  1518. Roger Hackstock: [laughter]
  1519. Daniel Schaub: Thank you.
  1520. Rahul Mishra: Thank you for the for your insight about Trump as well.
  1521. Daniel Schaub: [laughter] And, yeah.
  1522. Daniel Schaub: Thank you for watching the interview until the end,
  1523. Daniel Schaub: and, uh, keep tuned because soon we're going to have more interviews and interesting topics in energy transition. So see you until the next time.
  1524. [Music]