Season 1

Pulp, Power, and Policy: Decarbonizing Austria's Paper Industry with Sherin Gharib from AustroPapier

with Sherin Gharib· AustroPapier· 48m

TL;DR

Sherin Gharib discusses Austria's paper industry decarbonization, geopolitical energy risks, EU carbon policies, and the need for holistic policy frameworks.

Synopsis

Sherin Gharib, an expert in energy and climate policy at AustroPapier, details the Austrian paper industry's ambitious net-zero roadmap by 2050, emphasizing electrification, heat pumps, and bio-carbon capture. She highlights the industry's high reliance on biomass (70%) and Austria's significant renewable electricity share, positioning it as a regional decarbonization leader. The discussion extends to the complex geopolitical landscape influencing Europe's energy transition, including the risks associated with hydrogen import corridors from the MENA region, critical mineral supply chain dependencies on China, and the problematic nature of the recent US-EU LNG deal. Gharib stresses the importance of policy diversification and a comprehensive framework to address challenges like industrial competitiveness under EU carbon policies and infrastructure gaps for new energy carriers.

Key metrics

by the numbers · 6

23 members
AustroPapier member companies
70%
Biomass share in paper industry
87 88%
Austria renewable electricity share
2030
EU Russian gas phase-out target
750 billions
US-EU gas/oil investment
2030
EU free allocations phase-out

Topics

9 tags

Industrial decarbonizationPaper industryBiomass energyCarbon captureHydrogen geopoliticsCritical mineralsEU carbon policyEnergy securitySupply chain risk

Stats

Duration: 48m
Words: 7.1k
Questions: 32

Timeline

11 chapters

Sherin Gharib Introduction
Guest Sherin Gharib is introduced, highlighting her background in political science and renewable energy.
Career Journey to Energy
Sherin explains her motivation for studying political science and how geopolitical shifts led her to energy security and renewables.
Role at AustroPapier
Sherin details her role at AustroPapier, the Austrian paper industry association, focusing on energy and climate policy.
Austrian Paper Industry Decarbonization
Discussion on the Austrian paper industry's net-zero roadmap by 2050, emphasizing biomass, electrification, and heat pumps.
Carbon Capture and BioCC
Explanation of the potential for bio-carbon capture (bioCC) in the paper industry due to its use of biogenic sources.
Geopolitics of Hydrogen Corridors
Sherin discusses the global shift towards green hydrogen, potential import corridors from the MENA region, and associated geopolitical risks.
Israel-Hamas War Impact on Energy
Analysis of the direct and indirect effects of the Israel-Hamas war on energy markets and supply chains.
Critical Minerals and Supply Chains
Discussion on the EU's critical minerals act, dependencies on China, and the importance of community involvement in mining projects.
US-EU Energy Deal Critique
Sherin provides her critical assessment of the recent US-EU deal regarding LNG and oil imports, deeming it problematic for Europe.
EU Carbon Policies and Industry
Examination of EU carbon policies, including the Emissions Trading System (ETS) and CBAM, and their impact on industrial competitiveness and carbon leakage.
Advice for Political Scientists
Sherin offers advice to political scientists entering the energy field, stressing the importance of a holistic understanding of technical, economic, and geopolitical dimensions.

Key insights

6 takeaways

01
Paper Industry Leads Decarbonization
The Austrian paper industry has a net-zero roadmap by 2050, leveraging its high biomass share (70%) and investing in electrification and heat pumps, positioning it as a role model in the CEE region.
02
Bio-Carbon Capture Unique Potential
The paper industry has a unique advantage in bio-carbon capture (bioCC) due to its use of biogenic biomass sources, offering a pathway to negative emissions if infrastructure and legal frameworks are established.
03
Hydrogen Corridors Face Geopolitical Risks
While hydrogen import strategies from the MENA region are being pursued (e.g., EU-Mena corridor), significant geopolitical risks exist, including land use tensions, water scarcity, and the need for supplier diversification to avoid new dependencies.
04
EU Carbon Policies Threaten Competitiveness
The planned phase-out of free ETS allocations by 2030 poses a major challenge to the competitiveness of energy-intensive industries like paper, with CBAM currently viewed as insufficient to prevent carbon leakage.
05
US-EU Energy Deal Problematic for Europe
The recent US-EU deal involving significant investment in US gas and oil exports is considered problematic for Europe, risking new dependencies and potentially serving US interests over European energy security and climate goals.
06
Holistic Policy Framework Essential
Achieving net-zero for heavy industry requires a comprehensive policy framework, not just individual measures, focusing on infrastructure development, ensuring energy availability, and managing costs for end-users.

Pull quotes

5 quotes

In recent years the agenda has shifted more towards climate action, climate protection and integration of renewables into the system and that really inspired me to know more about the technical issues and the technical and the economic dimension of renewables.
Sherin Gharib
Net zero road map. so the Austrian paper industry wants to become net zero but by 2050 which is in line with the European goal there.
Sherin Gharib
The baby industry industry compared to other industries really has has an like a role that not other industries have because because the industry uses biomass and biogenic sources and so this is then possible technically possible.
Sherin Gharib
It's I believe it's really a problematic deal.
Sherin Gharib
I really can't can't mention just one policy because it's about the whole framework, it's about right now we have many strategies but we but it's about the implementation and it's about having the right infrastructure
Sherin Gharib

Transcript1058 cuesClick a timestamp to jump

Okay, welcome to a new interview in
the energy bridge. Today we have the
pleasure to have Sherin Gar or a
classmates in the master in renewable
energy at Tubin. And today we're
going to explore the intersection of
a political scientist with now technical
background. It's so many things to
talk about in energy especially now with
the situation in Middle East in
Central Europe. yeah we're happy
we're very happy to have you here and
yeah we have too many questions today.
>> Thank you very much Sharon. how are
you doing? thank you so much Rahul
Daniel. I'm fine. I'm really pleased
to be part of your podcast today.
thank you so much for having me here
today. yeah and I'm looking forward
to hearing more from your questions.
>> A brief summary of what you
>> That's a big summary.
>> Yeah. But just just to mention that
you have worked for Austrian Mini
Ministry of Defense for Austrian
Institute of International Affairs
former head of Austria network for
Analind Foundation among many others
related with the EU Mena region part of
University of Vienna also making
classes. So it's a
>> and you only have three masters. So
>> yeah. So
maybe we could start for your
professional journey and educational
journey. How what was your motivation to
study political science and how did you
get in energy?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Sure. well actually I am
have always been a deeply political
person. so I was really interested
in knowing more about political
developments
and international relations
and u geopolitical shifts. so from
the very beginning it was really clear
to me that I want to study political
science and since I was really
interested in knowing more about
political developments in the Middle
East and North Africa region I also
started to study middle eastern
studies. so this is the
combination and of course energy
security is an really important and
really crucial role when talking
about global politics. So I
actually was interested to know
more about about all this
geopolitical shifts and in recent
years the agenda has shifted more
towards climate action, climate
protection and integration of renewables
into the system and that really
inspired me to know more about the
technical issues and the technical
and the economic dimension of
renewables. and then I started
with my post-graduate studies at
the technical university because I
believe that it's really important to
have this bigger picture. It's not
really enough to just focus on the
technical dimension but it's also about
the whole geopolitical picture.
>> Yeah. And what was the first like
news or or data that you saw like an
this is important topic like because
energy it's u like transversal sector
but it's highly geopolitical
>> yeah so what did you see there like was
it gas oil or something in particular or
>> it was it was all of that. It
was of course gas. Oil especially
when you think about the Mina region I
mean yeah oil gas plays a really
important role and for me it's about
energy security and we have a lot of
questions around that. now the
energy and climate policy of the EU is
very much shaped by these geopolitical
shifts and developments we see
especially after the Russian
invasion of Ukraine. there are a
lot of questions around energy security
and I think this is this is really
important to bear in mind also
when talking about industrial
decarbonization.
>> Yeah, we're going to go.
>> Yeah.
I and before we get into it, I just
have a question. It's a curiosity
question that I have. What people do at
Ministry of Defense? when you I
mean I can understand when when you have
a war going on but apart from that what
is going on there?
>> Well, it's about analyzing and
monitoring of political developments and
then also in knowing if there are
any kind of risks. so it's about also
risk assessment. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
It's also about writing reports, you
know, and all that.
>> Watching news.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Sure. Sure. Yeah.
>> What did you imagine? Like
>> watch a lot of Netflix show.
>> Okay.
>> People with their fancy I don't know
goggles or something. People doing so
many stuff. So I was like maybe you have
something interesting anecdote to share
as well. What if defense is
>> everything is under the wrap?
>> Yeah. how do you think that this mix
of engineering and knowledge in Middle
East especially have influenced your
your work now in alapier because we
didn't mention but now you are part of
the alapier here in Austria as a big
intensity industry. So
>> how do you think that this knowledge
have influenced your action in
Austropia?
>>.
>> And also a bit about Austropia.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Maybe to start
Austropia and then the influence of your
knowledge.
>> yeah sure. Austropia has 23
members. they're the big names like
Hansel Lensing Mi. they are part of
of the of the of Austria which is
association of the Austrian paper
industry. I am responsible for the
energy and climate policy. so you
know all aspects all but also
technical issues and decarbonization
strategies all all that and how
how my studies have shaped my work
now answering that question I think
as I've already mentioned it's about I
believe it's about the broader
picture and to have also knowledge
about the geopolitics because this
shifts we currently
we are currently witnessing really
affect also the Austrian energy and
climate policy. so I think this
combination is really really
important to have. and then of
course the technical aspect it's
really important because if you don't
have that background it makes really
it makes it really difficult to
understand things around the
emission rate system and all the
different laws. issued by the EU but
there are also a very big law for
example on a national level so I
think it's it's this this mixture is
really really important to
have yeah
>> what have surprised you more in EU
policy in terms of industry
decarbonization because you are
analyzing policy so what have surprised
you more
>> so the needs and the
challenges of the industry sector
they were not that new to me because
a couple of years ago I was working for
the Austrian Ministry of foreign
affairs at the department of trade
relations and I was involved in all
the issues on targeting the needs
and the challenges of the industry had
also contact of course with
with the industry representatives also
with the chamber of commerce and
all that. So, so I knew some issues
but I was not really aware that we
have such a big baby industry in
Austria and of course I knew
like some some companies. Yeah. But I
was not aware that we have this big
industry and I was not aware that the
baby industry has some efforts in
decarbonization and that that was
really new to me and I think that's
something I really see as really
positive. so for example there is a
net zero road map. so the
Austrian paper industry wants to
become net zero but by 2050 which is in
line with the European goal there.
This road map like draws on how how
it wants to achieve how the industry
wants to achieve this goal and I
think that's really really interesting.
So this this is yeah this is actually
what also fascinates me. It's really
>> Yeah. You're thinking out loud that why
paper industry is so big in Austria.
Maybe because you like paperwork.
Because
>> we are making a lot of things now and
everything is in paper. So
>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
>> No, no, it's it's because
>> Yeah. But just to tell you the
background, it's because of the forest.
It's because so yeah if also in the
countries where you have forest there
there the paper industry
>> is Austria the third largest paper
producer in EU.
>> Oh I don't know if it's the third
largest but it's one of the very of
the larger ones. Yeah. So we have also
Sweden, Finland, Germany but Austria
is definitely is really really
strong. Yeah. And many of these
companies are Austrian companies
having like sites also in
other countries. Yeah.
>> And what is the energy mix scenario for
the paper industry in Austria? What kind
of energy that they are using?
>> it's a biomass. It's a really high
share is biomass around 70% is biomass.
so there is already already
very high share of renewables which is
really really good and when talking
about decarbonization of course
electrification will play an important
role. So yeah there there are a lot of
investments also on that and biomass
might play more bigger role in
future and yeah we will see gas
will remain important
>> what is the percentage of
electrification that already being done
in Austria for the paper industry
>> you mean the electrification already
already done
>> yet there there's a lot of
electrification done in the in the last
years combining with heat pumps.
Heat pumps play an important role in the
electrification process.
>> Is there some technical barrier that you
are observing to phase out the gas to
electrify the mills or
>> Yeah. Yeah. the Austrian paper
industry is really energy
intensive and not all not
everything can be decarbon
decarbonized by electrification.
So this is this is actually so of
course there is a technical barrier but
it's also a lot of a lot about the
framework and also about energy security
in terms of not only availability but
also the costs. So also the costs
play an important role because the
prices are getting higher and higher and
there's a problem related to the
competitiveness. So if you compare it to
to other if you compare the Austrian
situation to other countries in
Europe where you have kind of
subsidies on energy prices the
Austrian industry has
challenges when it comes to the
competitiveness. So, so there are more
cost barriers or more technical
so technical is physical
>> it's it's tough actually because not
because of the energy in intensity and
not everything can be just electrified
you need like biomass you need
gas you need something like that so it's
kind of both actually yeah
>> I want to ask you like the role of
aopia so it also to steer There are 25
members, 25 paper producing companies.
So, Ostropia the usual role is that they
steer the industry where it will be
moving.
>> Exactly. Yeah. And there there are
different decarbonization strategies
and but of course I cannot talk about
them now but there's a clear road
map on how to achieve also carbon
neutrality. So there are a lot of
efforts done here.
>> Okay. Maybe there is a website to
review the goals.
>> Yeah, of course there's Yeah, exactly.
And there is also you will find the
road map so the description
>> it's Yeah. So there's a lot about F
switch and then maybe I can add here
some some points carbon capture
for example will also play play a big
role and it's really important
>> of serving in this industry. so
because as I told you biomass is
really important plays a big
role and yeah but there is the bioCC
the biocarbon capture that means you
can capture the biogenic
>> CO2
no not with plants there's yeah the
infrastructure still still we need just
we still need the infrastructure and the
paper industry has a lot has a huge
potential on that. but of course we
will have to see how how the
infrastructure and how the there
will be like the legal framework for
that. So we have but the commission
in the commission has issued and
published that it that it's really u
welcoming carbon capture
measures and yeah and negative yeah
negative emissions. So bioCCC would lead
into negative emissions. So and the
paper industry actually has a really big
role on that. Do you have a kind of goal
part of the road map to 2050
>> the carbon capture it's a main role
in on that or it's more electrification
like what is the
>> it's both it's it's the combination yeah
it's the combination yeah because
it's it's not you need actually you need
the whole system for decarbonizing
and it's really depends on the
different meals it depends on the
processes so yeah but of course
it's it's both of them and bioCC
the baby industry industry compared
to other industries really has has
an like a role that not other industries
have because because the industry
uses biomass and biogenic sources and
so this is then possible technically
possible. the name bio carbon capture
>> what is
>> biogenic biogenic
>> so what is different with other
technologies or why you choose this one
>> so there when talking about
carbon capture there are two
technologies it's the carbon capture and
storage yeah and then afterwards
also there are discussions and debates
on how to like build up carbon
markets this
This is in discussion actually. And then
you have biocc which is related to
biomass. So this is this is the yeah
exactly fuel.
>> Yeah.
>> It's because of the feed stock.
>> It's about Yes.
>> It's a special technology for this.
>> Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And carbon
capture is really relevant for the steel
industry for example. I was just asking
that with Ostropia are you also
in talking to other such consortium
in other countries do you?
>> Yeah of course of course there is
the confederation of the European
baby industries and we are a member
and we always have an exchange
with the other paper industries
because we have similar
challenges. It's really important to you
know to exchange and also to have a
kind of advocacy strategy together.
>> Do you think which of the countries you
will say that already have gone ahead in
the transition of paper in pulp industry
that they already been able to electrify
or functioning as a role model?
>> Yeah. Well, I think Austria is also I
mean Austria is on a good way. we
have also Sweden which is also
well actually all of them all all
current but it's more the
Scandinavian countries and Austria also
as well and Germany they're also putting
efforts on that. Yeah, but I can
talk about the Austrian paper industry
not that much about the other
European paper industries.
>> because we are focused more on
the central and eastern European and we
we want to establish Austria and I think
Austria is pretty much the role model
for the region.
>> Yeah.
>> And while I'm doing the thesis with my
topic is also pretty much the same.
So Austria had been able to and I'm
comparing Austria with Romania and
Poland. okay.
>> because Austria is also fortunate
with its energy mix. So it gets a lot
of electricity which is there to be. So
>> and this is part of the thesis.
>> Great.
>> Yeah. I that the electricity
mix and the share of renewables is
really high in Austria. It's around I
think 87 88% which is really really
high. So yeah.
>> Yeah. taking the CE region reality.
do you think this coal boilers can be
retrofitted to electrification in the
paper industry?
>> yeah, in Austria coal pilots
do not really or the role is really
diminished. They're not really coal
pilots. Maybe it's I don't know one two
or something like that but it's it's
more gas spoilers actually and
processes are really energy
intensive. it's it's h
sometimes it depends on the processes
but sometimes it's not really that easy
to move on to electrification.
but in the case of the other
C countries I
believe it's about the mixture. It's
about having like maybe biomes actually
also is a good example also for
other paper mills in the region.
and yeah electrification of course
and then we will see what what role
renewable gases will play. So
hydrogen for example but this is
something we don't know yet. but
by the way bio gas is also really
important in the case of the Austrian
paper industry because biomass
is used there is also
sometimes surplus heat and electricity
which can be fed into the grid. so
this is also something really
positive. So that means the Austrian
paper industry is not only using
energy but it's also producing and
feeding into the grid.
>> So it's possible to retrofit coal
boilers to biomass and then to leap frog
to electrification right. So could be a
a way.
>> Yeah. Yeah. theoretically but you
know when it comes really to technical
issues I think you we have to look on
the on the exact processes and on the
meals and there are a lot of things
to look on
>> super old
>> yeah they can yes exactly and then I
mean it's also about the framework not
talking about the coil boilers but
about gas now because this is what in
Austria is the debate or the
discussion how to replace gas
and not coil anymore. Gas will remain
as something that will be that you will
need. Yeah, there there are a lot of
questions on that especially because
also the comm the commission the
European Commission has
announced that it wants to phase out
Russian gas of course by 2030 also
including LG and so all these things
have to be also included into the
decarbonization strategies yeah of the
industrial sector. Sharing you've
worked so much into the geopolitics of
of stuff and energy is getting more and
more geopolitical and there are a lot of
risk around this region and you're
currently dealing with the EU Mena
hydrogen corridor. What what do you
think how it's coming along and
what are your thoughts on it?
>> Yeah, exactly. hydrogen is a really
big topic and there are a lot of
debates also on that and but
before answering your question I think
it's I believe it's really
important to mention that we are
now witnessing this global
shift towards fragmentation
and also kind of delization
and there are a lot of questions on
energy security so all that is related
to energy security of course. and
so yeah so we have a lot of
challenges also in terms of the
competition between the US and
China and we see that China is
plays really important role when it
comes to critical minerals but
also when it comes to manufacturing
for example electrolyers and all that.
So, so yeah, so there there's a let's
say a challenging global order right
now. Yeah. And green hydrogen
would of course also reshuffle maybe the
global order because currently when when
you when you look at the different
strategies on hydrogen, you see that
almost every country has a green
hydrogen strategy. This is also really
interesting and many countries want to
be exporters. So this is this is also
interesting.
>> Yeah, it's the inter European Union of
course according to the
publications of the commission the
strategy imports will be really
important but it will also
raise some some questions and
some risks as well. So green hydrogen
there are a lot of debates on
importing green hydrogen from the
Mina region. So for example Tunisia,
Algeria and the also the Austrian
government has signed a memorandum of
understanding yeah between Tunisia or
with no so with Tunisia and with
Algeria. so there there are of kind
of plans to import hydrogen but I
think it's really important
to look also on the risk side because
if you look on political developments
in the Mina region there a lot of
questions around and also tensions
around land use and there is a water
scarcity and there yeah there are
a lot of risks
and the EU for example has also
has already an import strategy which
is fine but a Austria has not hasn't
an import strategy. So it's we will
see how the strategy will look like
but I think it's the key is the divers
diversification.
So I believe it's about having
different hydrogen suppliers.
Exactly.
>> Yeah.
replicate the situation now with Russia.
>> Yes. Exactly.
>> Yes. Exactly. Exactly. And I believe
it's not not only about that. I think
it's also really important to look
at the necessities within these
countries and also the
stakeholders and the communities and to
kind of to also look at the
use of renewables within these countries
of so for example Tunisia or or Algeria
or Egypt they don't have a high
share of renewables right now. So, so I
think this is all this this have have to
be taken into consideration when
you're talking about exports
>> and how do you think that influence
the Israel Hamas war now in the imports
from from Mena region what's risk can be
and if there are some plan B's
>> the actually there are a lot of
direct but also indirect effects
so indirect effects are the volatile
markets. So of course we see that
very quickly on the energy prices. So
and then when talking about
the direct effects there there
were you can of course remember
the tensions between Iran.
there are still tensions between Israel
and Iran and there were some some fears
actually that Iran could or that this
could affect the strait of hormones and
then the LNG's supplies. so of
course this is this is a risk and
then also when we talk about hydrogen
there's there might also be a
competition between different
exporting countries like
Algeria and Morocco there already
some tensions and then remains
we will see how how hydrogen will also
like have an influence kind of
influence on that.
>> So the green the hydrogen corridors are
also from men region to Europe and
that's from by the sea or on land.
>> Well also by the sea but pipelines
this is and Austria will is supposed
to play a major role on the south H2
corridor. So this is yeah this is a
corridor that should connect North
African countries with Europe and
there
>> Italy right? Yeah, exactly. And then
coming to Austria and Austria would in
this case play a major role because it's
it's linked and yeah and
and there are a lot of discussions
right now on the infrastructure and also
on financing actually the
infrastructure. So but also it's not
only the Mina region also Ukraine. So
yeah, there are also like talks about
how Ukraine could play a major
role in yeah in exporting hydrogen
and yeah now we have the war of
course but afterwards yeah and
there are some projects as well or
there's one project I have heard about
so
>> you are making your thesis oh
brown
exactly
>> yeah exactly I'm writing my thesis on
hydrogen import roots and I'm doing a
risk assessment.
>> So yeah. Yeah. We can make another
interview just for
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Afterwards
>> going from one important part to
another. What do you think about the
other critical minerals like lithium and
cobalt? Like how how this region not
just Austria but the whole region is
reacting to it. you see what is
happening in Serbia. There's a bit of
>> problem around the Jadan project
>> and but it will mean that that
Europe will have to get lead from
somewhere else. So is there do you
have any thoughts about that?
>> Yeah, the EU is aware of that
and there's the critical the critical
minerals act aiming targeting this
this issue. It's of course it's a
challenge. and also when talking
about lithium from Serbia or from
Czecha, I think I believe it's it's
important to involve the
communities as well and that and it's
important that they kind of benefit from
from this huge project because you
know it's it shouldn't be like the
elites only benefit. It's like and
of course like it's important to involve
them also in the plans and
yeah and there are also
environmental issues as well and
so yeah I it can be a positive step
but it's always I believe about
the framework and how to yeah to
connect with the communities
but now right now we are really
dependent actually on China on that but
on South Africa as well but on China
really I mentioned already the
electrolyers
many of them come from from China but
also when we talk about PV for example
it's everything so yeah so
I believe it's diversification also
in terms of critical minerals is
essential but it's not that easy to
have yeah dependencies yeah exactly
Exactly. Exactly. And you have you don't
have them everywhere. So you so also
with renewables we will have kind of
dependencies on
>> several countries.
>> Have some of the critical material.
>> That's a good question. I think yes but
where exactly I think lithium is but
where exactly I don't know. Yeah. But
but I have heard Yes. Yeah.
>> Yeah. And yeah, regarding the risks, you
mentioned the
>> the sources, right? But what about the
geopolitically speaking the supply
chain?
>> What are the risks?
>> Exactly.
>> Minerals.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Or also also when it in it
comes to the supply chains, there are a
lot of risks. So, we have already
talked about war about conflicts
in different regions. So, this this
is this is definitely a risk. also
when when we talk about pipelines
yeah there there are a
lot of risks also on that. Yeah.
>> And regarding the US and European deal
that it was made in the last weeks I
I think what are your thoughts about
it related to energy imports right? What
are your thoughts about it? well
actually it's really kind of
problematic because currently the US
is an important exporter of
LNG. Yeah, of course. but this
dimension I think it was the agreement
included I think 750 billions
have to be invested in gas and oil
coming from the US and this is really
really challenging and there are a
lot of experts who said said that
this is actually not feasible and that
would mean that we have to import all of
our energy from the US which
wouldn't make sense and of course also
looking at the US from
the point of from or in terms of
trade challenges and c
customs and all that issues. It's
really problematic and the USA could
also use it as a kind of tool, you
know, for achieving own interests and
things like that. So, so it's I believe
it's really a problematic deal. Yeah.
>> For Europe.
>> For Europe. Yeah.
>> You would say that it was not a good
deal for Europe.
>> No, I Yes. I agree. It's not a good
tool for Europe. Yeah.
>> That can be also be summarized by the
photos that they published after doing
the deal.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The photo.
Exactly.
>> What better question than policy in
Austria and EU, right? Like there's so
many policy. But what do you think
about the EU carbon policies and
how are they treating the energy
intensive industry from from
offshoring so that the industry does not
go away and so the challenges
that basically that we are having with
EU carbon policies
>> and is a do you see it as as a threat or
not?
>> Well that's a good question. I
have already mentioned the
competitiveness of European
industries and of course carbon
policy is something very much linked to
that also on the one hand of course it's
important to have decarbonization goals
I believe but it's important to
involve the industry as well and I think
this is something the commission is
right now doing more and more. but
there are a lot of challenges in
terms of carbon leakage and yeah
and therefore we have it is
one the emission trade system one with a
free allocations for some industries and
we have also now candidate not under the
free allowance rate. No, they are they
are yeah they receive six or 20.
>> This is and this is the challenge. So we
will come to the challenge because the
to the challenges because the EU
wants to phase out the free
allocations by 2030. So there will
be less and less free allocations and
this is a huge challenge for the
industry because u right now it's a
good measure for against carbon
leakage but it's unclear what will
happen after 2030 and this is this is
a big risk in terms of CBAM there's a
lot of criticism on CBAM because many
industries think industry
industrial sector think that it does not
really avoid carbon leakage and so there
maybe there should be some
adaptations on there there will
also be some adaptations because the EDS
system will be revised next year by
the EU commission so there is the EDS
revision and CBM also will be kind of re
revised so there are a lot of debates on
that yeah but currently the industry
really or the paper industry really
has really challenges. What what are
the target for the paper and pulp
industry paper industry in Austria
>> to yeah to have the free
allocations also after 2030 because
because there's still a need of
decarbonization and now with the free
allocations there yeah it's it's easier
but without it's we will have a
lot of comp competitiveness issues. The
fee allowance is incremental, right?
Like how it starts with 5% and then
>> Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
>> Speaking about policy also, Austria
is really promoting energy
communities.
>>.
>> So do you think that there is a space
for high energy intensity industries
to be part of energy communities?
yeah theoretically it
could be it's it's but it really
depends on the framework. now there
is a new law on the electricity
system. It's the electricity
on a national level level and it's
now being revised by also
stakeholders and the law would make
make like direct clients possible and to
peer-to-peer u contracts things like
that and this could make that possible
but it's really theoretical now. Yeah.
So we so it really depends on the
framework on the legal framework and
on how it's going going to be
implemented.
>> Okay. Yeah, but it's it's not
something that like it is
something that theoretically is possible
but theoretically so yeah
>> but it's more possible for any
other industry for sure because paper
and is going to use more and more heat
pumps industrial heat pumps and
>> heat pumps can be decentralized and can
be part of energy communities. Yeah,
exactly.
>> Because I remember something from
from our last forum when you were
there discussing about AI for
industries.
>> Yeah. And you had a very rather
interesting discussion with another
of our panelist Barat about the
apprehension of AI in industries and why
but what do you think about how
what is the role of AI and other other
advanced technologies for industries
especially also for paper and pulp
industries.
>> Well AI plays already plays an
important and crusher role and will play
also. Yeah, it really it really can help
in different on different aspects. So,
AI will and there there are a
lot of companies really
implementing AI tools and this is this
is the future actually and I would say
in every industry sector but of
course using AI will means also that
we will be in need of more
electricity
and more energy. So this raises again
the question. So this is a risk as well
but I believe that it's there
are a lot of possibilities coming with
AI. So
>> yeah so we have to invest more and more
in renewables but that means that we
will also be kind of dependent
also.
>> are there any particular technologies
that you are seeing in the paper
industry? You mean AI technologies
implemented?
>> I think there is some
really related to paper
manufacturing. what exactly? I'm
not aware of it but it but there are
already already some tools being used
>> and you as industry see some risks
in terms of data protection for
example from the industry with AI
>> of course. Yeah. Data protection is
also an important issue. Yeah. so
it's about combining them how
to use AI without losing data. So
yeah and they're they're they're like we
will see depends on the tools
but still there are tools available as
well that's that could be used. Yeah
>> it's so new for now but it's being
observed.
>> Yeah exactly. Now just with the final
thoughts and how do you see the future?
This question is like to mention one
policy that could make heavy industry
net zero feasible. What would you do?
one policy.
Well, I really can't can't mention
just one policy because it's about the
whole framework, it's about
right now we have many strategies but we
but it's about the implementation and
it's about having the right
infrastructure and for example coming
back to hydrogen. So now we're
talking about hydrogen but there's still
the infrastructure is still missing and
there are a lot of questions also around
how the production costs will be covered
and the hydrogen is really
expensive still and so there are a
lot of challenges that should be
solved by policy makers and so it's
really important to have to
the overall framework. so I
would say it's about the infrastructure
and about the availability and also
about the prices also on the end
of the day when it comes of when it
comes to electricity and
energy.
>> Okay. So it could be summarize the
infrastructure and the coordination
between multiples agendas
agendas and policies right
>> yeah you can summarize it like that
>> and do you think that they are aligned
all the policies in this direction of
being net zero to 24
>> no I don't think that look at the
European hydrogen strategy this goal is
not here yet because we still have some
challenges And there there is a recent
study I have read on actually
arguing that the commission has to
revise its goals on that. It is it is
about the availability of renewables
also other other alternatives actually
to gas for example and we don't have
them yet.
>> Okay. So these are these are the
challenges
>> and your and your closing thoughts
Sharon because you have done you have
been a political scientist yourself and
then you entered the field of energy.
What about the other one who what one
piece of advice that you will give to
other political scientists who want to
get into the energy field? yeah, I
think it's really important to
talk to maybe represent industry
repres representatives but also to
policy makers to understand the whole
to understand or to grasp
actually the bigger picture and I think
it's important to know what's going
on in terms of geopolitical
shifts and things like that
linked to energy security and then of
course the technical dimension is
really important. So yeah and then
to get this insights into
technical and economic issues related
to energy. So it's a mixture actually
and I really believe that it's about
this bigger picture. It's not only
especially now especially in these
times it's not only to have this
technical background which is of course
really important as well and when
dealing with energy and climate
policies it's important to have this
geopolitical picture as well.
>> Yeah actually how was for how was it
for you to study a technical master
having a political science background?
Well, it was really technical,
>> it was like, okay, it's
interesting, but it's too technical, but
I'm fully aware that you have you
have to have this understandings of, you
know, of the technical dimension because
if if you don't know, then it's
really it's not Yeah, it's hard to you
know, work on energy and climate
policies.
So that's why we with energy bridge what
we are trying to do is a lot of the time
the policy makers they don't understand
the technicalities.
>> Yeah
>> they need to be together in on one place
with the technical innovators and so
that the policies are in line with the
technicality.
>> Yeah I agree
>> on that note thank you very much maybe
some thoughts that you would like to
share. Well, I think again it's it's
about everything is about
geopolitics. So, yeah. No, no, there
isn't something I'd like to share,
but again, I think that we're
really now witnessing a challenging
time in terms of different aspects
also. when you look at the EU
US deal that's another topic but yeah
also there are a lot of challenges and
so on and so forth and we have a lot of
we have the war now going on in
Russia so there there's a
lot
>> on yeah there's a lot going on
but again thank you for coming
I learned a lot so
>> yeah me too thank you very much and I
would love to read your thesis soon.
>> Yeah,
>> thank you so much.
>> Yeah, thank you for the community for
watching the interview until the end and
stay tuned for our next interview.
See you. Bye. Yeah.

Pulp, Power, and Policy: Decarbonizing Austria's Paper Industry with Sherin Gharib from AustroPapier

Paper Industry Leads Decarbonization

Bio-Carbon Capture Unique Potential

Hydrogen Corridors Face Geopolitical Risks

EU Carbon Policies Threaten Competitiveness

US-EU Energy Deal Problematic for Europe

Holistic Policy Framework Essential