S1E06

Bridging Policy and Practice for Austria's Energy Transition with Stephan Renner - TEB Podcast S1E6

with Stephan Renner· Austrian Regional Government· 58m

TL;DR

Austria aims for 100% renewable energy by 2030 through policy and stakeholder engagement.

Synopsis

Stephan Renner discusses Austria's energy transition strategy, emphasizing the importance of integrating technical and political perspectives. He highlights the challenges of permitting processes and stakeholder interests in achieving renewable energy goals.

Key metrics

by the numbers · 5

90%
Austria's renewable energy share
2030
Target year for 100% renewables
13 years
Wind project permitting duration
90 days
Gas strategic reserve duration
50%
Reduction in greenhouse gas emissions

Topics

5 tags

renewable energypermitting challengesstakeholder engagementenergy policyenergy security

Stats

Duration: 1h 01m
Words: 9.7k
Questions: 21

Timeline

6 chapters

Introduction
Discussion on the challenges of energy sources in Austria.
Stephan Renner's Background
Renner shares his journey from technical education to energy policy.
Policy vs. Technical Perspectives
Renner explains the differences between engineering solutions and political compromises.
Renewable Energy Goals
Discussion on Austria's target for 100% renewable energy by 2030.
Energy Security Measures
Renner outlines strategies for diversifying gas supplies post-Ukraine invasion.
Legacy and Future Goals
Renner reflects on the impact of policies on greenhouse gas emissions.

Key insights

4 takeaways

01
Need for Faster Permitting
Streamlining permitting processes is crucial for achieving renewable energy targets.
02
Stakeholder Engagement is Key
Balancing diverse interests is essential for successful energy policy implementation.
03
Long-term Planning Required
Energy projects require years of planning and investment to realize benefits.
04
Decentralized Energy Systems
A decentralized approach to energy production can enhance resilience against crises.

Pull quotes

2 quotes

You have a lot of different stakeholders that have clear interests
Stephan Renner
Permitting procedures faster
Stephan Renner

Transcript1475 cuesClick a timestamp to jump

Listen, we don't want that, but we also
don't want the fossil., and we also
don't want nuclear., so in the end,
you have to make a decision.
>> Yeah.
>> But if you're in a governing and you
opposition party, you don't have to take
this decision because you can say, I
want this because that's the beauty of
being an opposition. You can demand
everything because you don't have to
bring it. You don't have to bring it to
reality.
Welcome to a new interview here in Benji
Bridge. today we have the pleasure to
interview Stefan Vena
which is an example of a person
who have bridge itself industry with
policy maker with a technical with
technical background to like policy
architect energy policy architect we
could say. So thank you very much for
coming today.
>> Thank you for having me.
>> Welcome Stephen. Thank you.
>> yeah, Pete, please introduce
yourself to our community. we would
like to know more about your journey and
how you started.
>>. yes, my name is as you said,
Stefan Rena. I'm currently policy
advisor to the regional governor, vice
governor of a region in Austria,
Bunglan, the small 300, 000 plus people
region south of Vienna.
I used to work until February. I used
to work as an energy advisor to the
minister of energy in Austria,
Leonla,
which was on your event recently.
And I was mainly responsible for heat
law for the European Energy Council
for energy security issues in the
aftermath of the start of the war of
aggression by Russia. before that
I was in Brussels working for an
executive agency that distributes
funding to renewable energy project,
energy efficiency projects, green
financing projects. and before that I
used to work for the Austrian energy
agency which is a consultancy agency
also with memberships from industry
from from regions from various
stakeholders. I have a PhD in
political science and as you mentioned
before I have a technical background
because I did a technical higher school.
we have it in Austria. It's called
Hatel for those who speak German.
>> and it's a it's so basically I did an
education in robotics and machinery.
voila. So basically I bridge from
I come from a technical perspective then
did social science then
administration and then went into
politics. if you want as an adviser to a
politician.
>> Yeah. And how was this change from
technical perspective to policy? What
drive you to go there?
>> Yeah. I know you two guys you are
engineers. for me it was always clear
even when at the time when I did this
engineering school that I'm not in
my heart I'm not an engineer. I think
it's good to grasp
>> to grasp the basic tactical and physical
realities because you cannot
change physics that's one of the key
laws
but I always knew that there is more
to that and so that's why I studied
microeconomics and also political
science to also find a bit out that
you have the tech technical
challenges but you need to find the way
to govern that and to regulate
things., and for that I think
political science is interesting., it
could have been law, it could have been
macroeconomics. I decided to do
political science., because it's it's
it's a combination of law, economics,
social science, sociology and,
political theory..
>> so and when you ask me on the
perspective, it's I find it
interesting that in the formative years
of your life, you learn how to think and
you learn when you have a problem how to
engage in this problem, how to solve it.
And that's why I guess that a
technical perspective is different to a
lawyer's perspective. It's different to
a social science perspective.
>> And so basically when you have a
different angle on a on a problem, you
also find different solutions. And yeah,
>> I think more solutions than when you
only have a technical view or only have
a lawyer view or only have a social
science view.
>> Exactly. That's what we are trying to
bridge here is to put all the
perspective together to accelerate
energy transition.
>>.
>> Yeah.
>> we also want to just
understand a bit more about about your
journey. what kind of experiences
that you had to go from being
engineer to getting into the more
political side of it. you said
that people have different perspective
but if you can expand on what kind of
different perspective that once you were
an engineer and you got into the policy
space that you found
>>
their different perspective
>> how how do they differ and why they need
to come on the same page?
>>.
so in my specific in my life it was
all a lot of coincidences. why
I ended up in as an adviser to
politicians was a lot of coincidences as
always in life. there was not a
master plan behind that. maybe I
could like looking backwards say there
is a master plan but there wasn't.
but also when you work in a ministry and
you are on a political level and you
have to work with the civil
servants that are experts in their field
lots of them are either lawyers or
have a technical background
>> or are experts biologists
environmental studies and so what
they aim for is the ideal solution.
So you have a problem, you try to solve
it and in engineering
well you basically have like
mechanical laws and physical laws and
basic electrical laws and you have to
follow them.
>> and once you follow that and you can
solve the solution, you can solve the
problem.
>> in political realities you hardly
find find a situation where the ideal
solution is the landing zone. the lang
zone meaning this is the adoption of a
law for example so you hardly have a
situation where you have the ideal from
a macroeconomic
perspective from an welfare state
perspective the best societal solution
that's hardly the case usually you land
with the third fourth or fifth best
solution but this is because you have in
a complex reality like the electricity
system you have a lot of different
stakeholders that have clear interests,
profit interests, other interests,
different interests and of course they
pursue their interests and politics is
about balancing those interests and in
the end you land the landing zone. You
land at the solution that is from a
welfare state maybe not always the best
solution but it's the solution you got.
So basically it's the best solution in a
given environment which is defined by
political interests by stakeholder
interests and so on. So basically this
is a different perspective. From a
technical point of view you have an a
clear route to a solution. From a
political point of view you have to
integrate more into the equation
stakeholders interest and so on.
>> Okay. So it's like the intersection
of interest to for a common goal kind of
>> well whatever the common goal is
so you have so when you are in a
ministry and your minister has a
clear political goal for example you
want to have the renewable expansion act
the
>> and you want to have a clear
regulatory framework to have investment
certainty until 2030 so that we can
expand and renewable energy in Austria
to be have 100% renewables in 2030. So
you have a key goal and this is the goal
you want to achieve
>> but how you achieve the goal
>> of course depends on the different
interests on negotiations on well
on balancing the different interests
>> and how do you think h how important you
think it's the academia input or
research input into the policy
architecture
overall
I think of course it is important
because
the academia give they provide the how
should I say the space of possibilities
if something is not known it's not an
option so basically you don't know the
things that you don't know
and this is the role of academia
for me to enlighten and to widen
the space so that you can find solutions
that are not there yet. But you need
them and you need research to go
one step further and to provide
the possibilities for policy makers to
actually do that. Basically also an idea
first you have an idea. If you don't
have an idea, you cannot have a plan to
get there because first you need to know
where you want to go. And for this
knowing to where you want to go,
>> there is the academic world. There is
>> data.
>> Exactly. Basically for that it's
important to have once where
you want to go.
of course it's important that you get
support from with facts. You need to
have a factbased
>> at least we try always try to have a
fact-based approach. so this is what
science says like also for climate
crisis climate change. this is what
science says this is what we have to do.
and then of course you have a lot of
other interests that have their own
studies and but for
that you need you need academia. So
in that sense I think it's it's it's
very important. once it comes down to
political negotiations I think it's less
relevant because then it's more about
then it's more about interests and
negotiating and balancing the
different interests.
>> Okay. Like it's an input. It's to
enlight the way
>> to broaden the space of possible
solutions to a problem
>> and all this experience how did it
shape your approach for policies that
you for Austria E a and other such
policies how did you integrated your
knowledge from coming from different
backgrounds for having those
policies?
To be honest, for me it took quite a
while to change the to change the
role my role like coming from
close to academia like like PhD academia
then energy agency then in an
administration
and then entering the political life
where you have to think differently. You
don't have to you have to have a
completely different approach and the
perspective from an administration is a
completely different than from a from a
political point of view. so basically
you have to change the perspective the
way you look into problems. Something
that I mentioned before you have to look
at who are the main stakeholders what
are the main interests and what do I
need what is the plan to achieve my the
goal the political goal that I have.
so it's about having a clear vision of
what's the life or what's the world.
but that is that is the role of the
politician like my b used to be my boss
like the minister
>> and they have the clear vision of
where to want to go and we are there to
enable like from my role was to advise
her to take well informed decisions
>> to get from A to B and to get to
achieve this goal.
>> Yeah. And do you think it's possible to
get 100% renewable 2030?
>> Yeah, I think we're in a good track.
I think
last time we checked we were in a good
path. we achieved the solar goals.
of course all the wind takes a bit
longer. So the framework the legal
frameworks that we adopted
are in place but now they need to be
built. Of course, you also need to
have the grid enforced, reinforced.
>> that takes time. You need as you as
from your own experience,
you need permitting proced you need the
permitting procedures faster.
>> so for that we have the renewable
energy directive which needs to be
transposed international law which is
now in the process. It could be faster.
We have we had an acceleration law
prepared which was not adopted in the
end for some whatever reasons.
but all of that yes I think we are in
Austri on a good path. and
>> how much are you
>>
>> in renewable to
>> at the moment
>> at the moment. Yeah.
>> Well I think in 2013 we achieve it. I
don't know. I don't have to figure in my
head. I'm very bad with numbers.
That's maybe also a reason why in the
end I don't be I didn't become an
engineer.
>>
>> but it's more than 50. a lot of
hydro. It's a good mix now.
>> No, we are like 90. I don't know.
>> 90 already.
>> It's embarrassing.
>> You cut it out.
>> No. No. But it's it's good. And yeah,
actually in our energy forum two weeks
ago, Nicola from Energy Bean told to
the audience that he just connected a
wind power plant who took 13 years in
permits.
>>.
>> And he and they just could
connect them. So yeah, permits it's a
>> it's a thing.
>> Yeah. but then in
politics
so when we were in office we always
heard from industry from energy
companies we need to accelerate the
permitting procedure. So for that we
prepared we were involved in the renew
renewable energy directive red three
which had clear permitting
acceleration parts in it. we also
prepared a law that said that that
gave a maximum number of t a maximum
time for a certain procedure PV also
heat pumps and so on.
cassette it's called in German it's a
long word
>>
but once you have concrete proposals to
accelerate that that different other
interests kick in for example that you
have regions that have the competence
for the moment and they don't want to
get rid of the competences you have to
know Austria is a federal state and the
competences for energy is actually with
the nine regions and not with the
federal level which means that for every
law that you want to adopt on the
national level, you have to have a
twoth3 majority
because you have to overrule. Exactly.
So basically and in the last term
in parliament you had three parties
at least. So us in government and then
one opposition party for every energy
law and now we have even more splits. We
have three in government and you need to
have a fourth party to have to pass
energy laws. So basically the good thing
of that is once you adopt an energy law
it's always a broad consensus
>> even in Indian poly
>> I'm not so much involved in Indian power
but I can imagine
and so at least you have a broad
consensus but to get there of course is
difficult because you have the
nine provinces who have interests you
have the opposition that has different
interests than
and for that reason when you talk
about permitting it's always it has
always been a claim make it
faster. So we delivered we delivered and
then they were like whoa but not that
fast and whoa but we are we are in
charge. This is this is the lender. We
are it's our and you should not
at the federal level you should not
interfere with our so that in the end
this acceleration law renewable energy
acceleration law was not adopted because
also within our coalition partner
which is also based within the nine
regions there was a lot of
resistance.
>> I just have a small curious question.
land is a federal subject here or a or a
province like can like in India
especially if for example there are
for any kind of land permit you either
you there are lands which federal
government can do anything with it
>> and then there are lands which state
government needs to intervene
especially for power
>> central government is open they don't
need to go to the state government.
>>.
>> To pass a law.
>> Yeah. Well, planning and
whatever it's called in English,
the vitong so that you basically
dedicate area for a certain purpose.
>> Yeah.
>> Is very much part of the components of
the regions.
>>. And there you have some exceptions
which is high voltage lines,
electricity for example.
>> and we wanted to expand this area
of where no permitting is necessary at
all from based on the federal law.
>> So that's until a certain threshold for
PV or a threshold for a heat
pump, you don't need a permit at all in
the in the republic. And not only and
now because now you have building laws
in nine provinces and the threshold for
when you can build PV on the roof is
different in every of the nine
provinces.
>> Yeah. I would like to keep in your
personal path and to know how was the
change or your motivation to change from
the to work in Brussels with a
Europeans's perspective to go to work
now in a inland like with local
challenges.
>>.
>> What motivates you and what are the
biggest differences?
Well, the main driver for me and I guess
for you as well is always a learning
curve. Once you realize that you have
seen it and how it works, it
gets a bit boring.
>> and then of course I worked in the
administration for an executive agency
and we program new
programs we worked on finding the
best projects and then we prepared the
contract of the projects. That's what
it's called project cycle but after some
years it gets boring a bit boring
because it's always the same cycle.
>> and then this option came up and of
course if you ask if you want to work
in a company of a minister at least for
me as a political scientist that's
basically how better can it get and
that's why I decided to go and take this
challenge and work for the
minister. and that we are that I'm
now in the region is just a followup
if you want because the government ended
and at basically at the same time
we won an election in this region and
formed the government with them and
we can of course use experience that we
gained on the federal level and also
support them in the regional level and
so we built a new office in the regional
government's level and I think
we are already after a couple of weeks
pretty good established a good
coalition level because governing is
also a craft is something that you need
to learn and need to experience and it's
like
>> I don't know making a table something
you have to know how to do it and
governing is basically the same you need
to have some experience and then and
then on the federal level or in the
regional level it's it doesn't make
such a difference but it's it's just a
different perspective perspective from a
engineering perspective or from a
academic perspective to a governing
perspective.
>>. And what are your goals for the for
Bund Bund?
>> Borgenland.
>> Bin.
>> What are your plans for the region?
>> Well, at the moment we work on an
climate protection law on a climate law
which aims at being climate neutral
in 2030.
there is a intermediate step on 2030
>> like 2040 we want to be climate neutral
on 2030 we have an intermediate step
where we want to have more renewable
production as we consume energy total
so not only electricity.
>>., so basically all the all the
fossil fuel that we still need to use
because people are driving a car and
still have heating at home that is
powered by gas is compensated basically
by more renewable electricity., so we
want to really become a climateneutral
region but there are still a lot of
challenges. It's from that's only one
thing that we do from climate adaption
because we are affected by climate
crisis already which has impact on
the agriculture a lot on the water level
that we have like floods so we
are we feel it already and we feel it
mainly in agriculture and in water and
so basically these are the challenges
and one thing that I know once you
are in government many new challenges
come because some challenges you don't
know at the beginning. I didn't expect
an a war of aggression in 2022
but that just came or the virus that
>> all affected us.
>>.
>> Yeah. so maybe we could go back to
the E A the expansion global expansion
act..
>> what could you say that are the
learnings to apply it and what could
the CE region learn about it like what
could be the learnings to be applied
in the region?
what what I said in the in the
introduction is that for the environment
for the renewable energy
acceleration act
>> it was more a colleague of mine that
was involved in the nitty-gritty
of the law. so I had other
priorities. so basically I cannot
give you all the details about how
this law came into being and
but I think what is important is that
you set this clear path. Our vision was
and still is that in 2030
we want to produce 100% of the
electricity that we need. Of course it's
always a balancing perspective
with renewable energy.
And for that clear vision, you need to
have the regulatory,
>> the legal framework. Because
if you're a developer
and you're a company and you want to
invest, what you need to have is
clarity.
>> Yeah. Certainty.
>> Certain leading certainty. It doesn't
matter what it is. And maybe it's not
good for you,
>> but at least the important thing is you
have certainty. everything else is
and that's what this law does until
2030 and all the build all the
installations that they build until then
for a long time they have the
certainty to have a certain revenue
out of the renewable energy
production. So basically if you're below
a revenue it's compensated if you're
above you don't get too much
>> that that that has a name like a bottom
we
>> contract of difference basically
>> so you have one way or two-way contract
of differences so basically in the end
what you do what this contract of
difference does is when you produce when
you have the when the
electricity price is lower a certain
threshold you get some a bonus you get
some money and if it's above a certain
threshold basically you have to pay
something back.
>>
>> sounds fair.
>> Sound fair. And that's the idea.
Basically, what you have is you have
always the certainty to have revenues
out of the electricity you produce.
>> plus and this is the two-way
contract for difference even if you have
very high electricity prices which in
times can happen for Yeah.
>> They have market
>> for the reasons. Yeah.
the producers that that that
actually benefit a lot from it have to
pay something back. so I think it's
from from from from both sides from
the consumer perspective it's fair but
also from producer perspective it's fair
because it gives you clear regulatory
framework.
>> Yeah. With that you can go to
>> to banks
>> to banks and say we have exactly assured
this so we can make a business plan and
all the flow and you can get fund so
accelerate the
>> that's what we're working on also in
bunging at the moment with the regional
utility
>> bungan energy we have it's called
project tomorrow and this is exactly
what we do we have a clear revenue
stream for the installations with that
we go to banks European banks it's the
EIB is involved and they give you
some investment money so it's it's
capital they give you
>> and for them it's the best investment
because it's a clear it's low risk
it's clear revenues it's you have a
utility that is very much well placed
there and for that you can
leverage basically you can leverage the
own capital with bank capital
and build the renewable
energy.
>> Yeah, it's good.
>> I want to ask you something that
how did the policy becomes a standard
that it can be replicated that it
becomes a successful policy and that it
needs to be replicated by the other
regions by other countries. what do
you see what what are the key
ingredients of making a successful
policy or you think that
>> you already know it or after the
success that you think
>> no I don't know it also from the
European perspective one of the
important elements of a good project
always was is it replica replica
replicable in other member states
>> and what I find is So what I found is
that it's really difficult
because it's not a one-sizefits-all
and what what fits here is
completely different in another context
because you have different stakeholders,
different interests, different
companies, different interest groups,
different parties that work differently.
So I think replication as such is
important and it's always important to
look on the other side on another
country in another region
>> because you don't have to reinvent the
wheel as we say. but just to
replicate something and say
with factor A B and C you can replicate
it in all member states I don't think
that works.
>> You have to adapt it kind of
>> you have to adapt it. I think there's
some overall I think a consensus that
some well for renewable energy I think
it's always good to have community
involvement for example to have to
to be to be honest about the project
to talk with the people to take them
serious. I think this is for project
developers I think in all everywhere
it's the same thing but even here the
times are changing and the regions
are different times are changing because
now what you didn't have 10 years ago
is that you have very well organized
interest groups that are against it
that are anti- renewables and renewables
like wind has become a bit of a
cultural part of the cultural divide
and so you have a lot of interest groups
that just provide fake news and have
funding from sources that
>> and so that's why it gets more
complicated and they and they basically
destroy discourse and that's that's a
risk because also in Bunga in the
region what we have is a long
established and a wellestablished
relation with the civil society with
NOS's from it's called bird life or WWF
and they have been always involved
for all the windmills. So basically
every wind wind engine in the region has
been adopted or has been that we have
the okay from from this from the bird
life.
>> So we have like the nature conservation
perspective included in this in this.
So basically what I wanted to say is to
replicate things.
>> There's no there's no one plan where you
can do it but there's certain elements
that you need to I think I need to you
need to always consider.
>> Yeah. And well you mentioned the
importance of community approval to
to implement projects. How have you
overcome this not in my backyard
let's say obstacle
>> from from the communities
>>
I could say overall in Austria if you
look at the whole country
we probably haven't overcome because
we still have some regions that don't
have a single wind wind engine in their
region
>> just because of the anti- groups or
>> well they have mountains there are some
interest groups that are
kept fighting for protecting what they
call protecting landscape so
basically
so I'm not sure if we have adopted it
maybe one thought I think the fossil
fuel industry is and fossil fuel in
itself is very good at being
invisible so what fossil fuel is
really good at is hiding
because you are somewhere in
Russia you put it in a pipeline and then
the first time you see it's in your
heating system and actually there you
don't see it you see it in your tank
but even there you don't see it really
but you move. So it's a brilliant idea
and it's brilliant because it's it's
it's not visible for renewable energy if
you look at solar or if you need wind
you see it you see the landscape and
that creates some resistance in
part of the society. So in some regions
they say we don't want to have wind
engines because they don't fit
into the landscape and they change the
landscape and that's why we are against
it which is a which is a concern which
need to be taken serious. but for
that reason but just to say listen we
don't want that but we also don't want
the fossil and we also don't want
nuclear.
>> so in the end you have to make a
decision.
>> Yeah. But if you're in a governing and
if you're in an opposition party, you
don't have to take this decision because
you can say I want this because that's
the beauty of being in opposition. You
can demand everything because you don't
have to bring it you don't have to bring
it to reality.
>>
>> now principally the government
that you were supporting are in the
opposition. Do you have some certain
things that you want to put on the
government that they should do now? like
>> well as I said at the beginning I'm I'm
talking here in my capacity as a as a as
advisor to the to the regional governor
and
>> or maybe you would like them to say like
the principal opposition which is
there to ask the government that
they should stress upon something.
>> Sure. one thing is clear we need
to support we keep to continue to
support renewable energy in Austria and
just we have some some new proposals
hopefully soon on the table
electricity law and also this expans
the pashan's law the acceleration law
and what I've seen so far is a step
back. Basically, you have
you have a peak shaving obligation
for wind for solar, which makes sense
if it's done smart, but what I've seen
now is not too smart.
>> Yeah.
>> And but let's not go into nitty-gritty
of Austrian politics because that's
>> that's maybe not too interesting for
for your audience.
>> Yeah. And you mentioned nuclear and
lately it's a topic that it's again in
the table with the international report.
How do you see the evolution of new
nuclear power plants in the region?
>>.
one of my responsibilities in the
ministry was the energy council and
in the energy council you have all the
member states pushing their interests
and we have seen that the nuclear
lobby and when you look at the member
states particularly France but also
other member states like Czech
Republic push for renewable push
for nuclear a lot
and They use the argument that it's
low carbon and it's a solution to
climate change to push for nuclear.
Austria has always been very critical
and the Austrian position has been very
critical. and also we created a
lobbying group if you want. It's we
called it the friends of renewables
which was a like-minded group of
member states that coordinated
themselves for the renewable energy
directive
>> to push back this claim that
renewable energy directive should be a
lowcarbon energy directive. That was one
of the goals from France and we
were successful. so I think nuclear
is a solution to climate change
because it can replace fossil fuel.
However, there are so many other
questions that are unsolved in nuclear
which is proliferation which is nuclear
waste which is the risk of terrorism
the nuclear risk in itself. So there
>> political dependency also.
>> Exactly. So it doesn't make you
independent. you have other sources,
you need uranium, you have uranium. So
you have many unsolved problems. but
you have a very strong and very powerful
political lobby for nuclear with
France of course in the front of it.
So our perspective always was as Austria
we want renewable energy because it's
cheaper, it's more cost effective,
it's local, you can produce it
instead of nuclear. So of course in the
European Union it's the choice of every
member state. It's their own decision to
define their energy mix. but what we
wanted to prevent is that at the
European level, we give funding into
more funding into a technology that has
been in the market for 70 years and
still apparently still needs
subsidies in order to run because it's
too expensive, it's too slow and it's so
for us it was not a solution but of
course it's on the table and many push
for it.
>>. one of the thing the two
weeks ago when we had the forum was
about energy security in this region
because of what happened politically
with Russian gas being and you were
instrumental as well in terms of what
happened after the invasion of Ukraine
as a former senior project officer as
well. what the this region of central
and eastern Europe they need more
proposals they need more projects how
can they get more funding from Europe
considering the low low success rate
>> for the projects
>> well the easy solution on the short
answer would be write better proposals
but the question is of course what are
better proposals
well I think it's a learning process
process., every good proposal has a
clear idea, clear deliverables. The
project partners need to be the right
partners., so they need to be based
also in the group., it need to have
it need to clearly have also political
backing if you work in a region for
example of the local authorities.
So everything together in a in and draft
drafted in a coherent way is a good
is a success for a good proposal.
So like when I was at the other
job and was project adviser
for me when I looked into the
proposal within 5 minutes it was clear
is this a good proposal or not?.
>> Maybe it was then you have a prejudice
and maybe but usually you see
clearly at the beginning if they have a
clear idea of what they want to do or
not.
>> Okay.
>> And if they use words like this is a
tool for a toolbox for or this is a so
if there are if they hide their actual
idea behind words that don't mean much
>> then for me it was always clear that
there's not a this is not a good
project.
>> Okay. And if you have to tell the maybe
three element for a successful pro
project proposal, what would they be?
>> Well, as I said, a clear goal.
>> Yeah.
>> With it, which is a vision that
that that takes the situation on the
ground and makes it better. You have to
have a clear vision. You have the right
people.
>>.
>> in the project which are partners.
well those those are two those are the
main and maybe the third
would be the
>> political support or
>> yeah which I would consider as the right
people but political support is of
course important but also
this now a bit nitty-gritty the clear
calculation so sometimes you have you
have project that makes sense and then
you have insane numbers or insane euros
that you want to have for this
project. So
>> yeah.
>> Yeah. you mentioned the
>> flashback to my past now.
>> I have some flashback.
>> you mentioned the situation
between Russia and Ukraine and how does
affected to the region because of the
gas energy independency and you were
in the government at that time. So how
did you address this energy security
issue and what were the strategies for
example we heard about this geothermal
project in Vienna but what were
your vision to address this kind of
crisis right
>> jumping from the past to the recent past
when in 2022
Russian invaded Ukraine we were in a
situ situation where Austria was
dependent to 90% on Russian gas.
>> Wow.
>> so we were highly dependent had one
company that imports gas which is OMV
which has long-term contracts until
2014.
>> They prolonged the contract in 2018
>> until 2014 for basically no reason.
>> Yeah. Exactly.
>>
and so basically we were not in a very
convenient situation. So in that
situation, if Putin had decided to
switch off gas supplies to Austria, we
would have had to shut down industry
shut down reduce electricity
production. it would have been a huge
recession with a lot of unemployed
and with a lot of public funding to
to basically to support those
that are affected. So it would have been
a major economic crisis in Austria.
>> yes and so we were in this
situation well besides some sleepless
nights where we realize that we are
in a kind of difficult situation we
realized that we need to get as soon as
possible out of this of this dependency.
we need to diversify our gas supplies.
which is of course not that easy if
you are in a framework where you have
European law, where you have Austrian
law, we have private actors have
contract with other actors where they
signed the contract in the past. So how
can you change what what what and also
in the contracts they have already
made sure that if a nation state just
makes a decision and forbids probably
forbids for example that that that
you import gas from Russia that that
they get compensation. So basically we
had a private company.
>> Yeah.
>> and we can now talk about this
because OM has has has ended this
contract. and so we had a
situation where this one company was
just got all the so but basically so
next step was we were in difficult
situation. How do we get out? So we
created a diversification law which
created incentives for the basically
covered the higher costs from gas
coming through Germany because you need
to transport them through German. It's a
bit more expensive. we created a
what's called the gas strategic gas
reserve which is basically what we have
for oil within the framework of the
international energy agency that you
have some basic reserve 90 days of
oil reserves. So we created something
like this for gas.
>> and then of course you have the
medium short-term medium-term long-term
perspective.
>> and then of course you need to have
all the solutions that we pursue
anyways which is renewable energy
installations, electricity, getting rid
of molecules and introducing more
electrons in the system. and the
geothermal energy is one of the
solutions
>> because it's basically there you could
just harvest it. It's the other the only
thing is that it's it takes 5 years.
>> Yeah. They are just drilling right last
>> they have drilled already. But in 2022
when we're in a situation we could have
said don't be concerned people we
have geothermal energy in Vienna because
no it was not a solution. Exactly. So we
had this is the long-term perspective
for the short term we had to have
>> subsidies and kind of
>> that then also that you have
the energy companies that had to store
more more gas so basically there was an
obligation within the law so all
different and then we had the
European level where we had emergency
regulations
so it was a very busy time
challenging yeah
>> now the industry I have a I'm doing a
thesis is in the universities and
it's about industrial decarbonization.
So I'm I'm looking into the pathways. So
one of it is electrification, the other
is of course lowcarbon sources. So
looking also into the bio energy side of
it. But how did the industries react?
Are they more prepared now? and I
think they have more coordination with
the with the policy makers now because
of crisis and they should have the
ears on the ground all the time to
prepare for such things.
>> Yeah.
As as always there is not one industry
but there are different companies and
and depending on the company they are
have different solutions. We have a
large company like first they need a
lot of it's it's an steel company in up
Austria. they realized quickly that
they need to become independent and
and what they did is that they
changed their strategy to buy a gas and
bought it somewhere else. they were
not they didn't have the longterm
contract. today understand immediate if
you are if you are I don't know if
you have a restaurant and you get all
the fruits from one company and the
company doesn't want to not not a
a sane entrepreneur would do that
to be so dependent on one
>> but we were so it was it was it
was an insane decision in 2018 by former
government to expand that
industry. Some of the companies they
reacted immediately and they and they
got it. And also what we saw since then
there's a major shift also in
industrial heat from from from gas
mainly to heat pumps.
>>.
>> up to a certain degree.
and also we introduced the
transformation of industry subsidy
scheme which is a long-term subsidy
scheme because in industry you have to
have long-term decisions
>> and the decision the investment cycle is
very long that you have a clear
subsidy schemes for this transformation
and to subsidize be hydrogen be
high temperature heat pumps u so that
you have clear you can have you can
implement this decarbon decarbonization
pathway industry.
>>. That's one of our next
interviews that is a surprise. We are
not going to reveal the name but it's a
professional from Austrian Institute
of Technology AIT and we are going to
talk about high temperature heat pumps.
>> Oh, so that will be one of the next
episode. so seeing in the future,
do you see that we could have another
energy crisis soon or how to be
prepared for our next crisis?
>> Yeah. I think yes there will be
crisis as as has always been crisis.
and there will be crisis. We had the
energy crisis in the 1970s.
the International Energy Agency and
the before mentioned storage
obligations were a consequence. we
had the well in 2022 we had this gas
crisis in Austria and in the future
there will be crisis too.
of course we have the risk of Taiwan,
China.
we're still in there. We saw yesterday
we have the Middle East which is fragile
which is in a situation where you
always have a potential crisis and we
see already that the oil prices go up.
so the supply shocks if you want
is always a risk.
Having said that and also you have a
nuclear crisis a potential because also
for nuclear we saw that also in 2022
that the French nuclear fleet was half
of them were down for maintenance for
whatever so they are very old and you
need to rebuild them but there's not a
lot of capital and it's huge investments
necessary so those are the areas you
have nuclear crisis
>> having said that I think that brings us
back to our political goal which is we
need to have a decentralized renewable
energy system with smart storage
reinforced grid and electricity
production from wind from solar and
geothermal as well. So taking everything
we have and we know that from science
that we have enough energy from wind
from solar so we can harvest the energy
we need to build this. So basically we
need to build this and then of course
all the questions come who finances it
who pays for it why should we pay now
for the grid that is there for the next
30 years or 50 or 40 years so but a
crisis there will be another crisis
there of course there will be crisis
there's always crisis but the less
you're dependent on external
or on market speculation
the less you're affected
>> by this
>> and you touch upon storage a lot of
the manufacturing for the for
battery storage is are done elsewhere
and it's also again dependent on u how
the global situation plays out are there
any plans from from from
the Austrian government or are there
any policies in place to incentivize
the manufacturing of storage
system within in Austria.
f first before that what is the
difference between
the material you need for
storage and oil and gas for example
>> of both of them you have to import
and yes we import a lot of the lithium
and the raw material you need for
storage we have some storage companies
in Austria and but most of them are come
fully done from China and you install
them simply that's what they do and
that's what we
and of course we have to be careful and
after 2022 also at the European level
we had some different acts that
aimed to become more independent. If we
have been successful so far that can be
debated. I think if it were the right
instruments that can be debated too
but the difference is still once you
have a battery here you have the raw
material here and when you think in a
circular economy point of view that's
something that's not just moving away
lithium is always lithium from a
chemical point of view
>> but if you import the fossil fuel like
oil and gas it's gone it's in the
atmosphere creating greenhouse gas
emissions
>> so the approach to import steel
to import lithium batteries whatever
>> PV it's a main it's it's it's a problem
of course if if if China is not
delivering anymore we are in
another crisis and yes also there we
have crisis
>> but still it's a difference the
difference is you have to think in a
circular economy point of view and not
in a linear where you import it and then
you goes up in smoke
>> yeah no that's u we are also
promoting secret economy approach and
renewable it's a important part of it
actually there is a study in Chile
that we made for to size the amount of
waste from the after decommissioning all
the power plants what will happen with
all this aluminum glass so it's a it's
pretty to see like materials that are
now here what to do afterwards
>> what is important here of course is that
from the
you need to have circular economy by
design basically also when you when you
design goods products and that's also
what we do at the European level and we
have to do it in Austrian level it needs
to be designed in a way that it is that
it's that it's possible to have it in a
circular but because if you have a
chemical product that it's it's so
mixed with all different and that you
cannot recycle it anymore
>> it's expensive to
>> or it's too expensive to have chemical
recycling then it doesn't make sense. So
basically from an in from a design point
of view
>> to the to the end of a lifetime of a
product the circular perspective
needs to be integrated. yeah
>> yeah now from a personal level
thinking in the future what would you
like to be your your legacy in energy
sector? my legacy. Well, as a
member of a cabinet, you always the
invisible hand of the minister. So,
basically, I'd rather talk of the
minister's perspective because that's
that's the important thing. so, my
>> personal I was happy to be able to
contribute a little bit to that and
that a little bit to that we are we had
the crisis and I think we did pretty
well. we now have a diversification
strategy of our gas supplies. I think we
continue we are on a path to reach this
100% renewables by 2030. we have an
energy efficiency law. We are reducing
electricity and energy
consumption basically. overall
we've had a subsidy scheme that
created a an engine a huge demand
for new heating for climate
friendly heating. So basically this
getting out of oil and gas in the
heating system is just it was just
booming and skyrocketing. the current
government now also with because of some
budgetary restraint cut some of these
subsidies
which is a shame but that's a that's
for another discussion so I think
overall
u and the most important thing is
that the greenhouse gas emissions for
the first time over years got back so
basically
>> we got back and we reduced the
emissions which gives us proof. Of
course, there's always other factors.
You have the climate and it's getting
warmer. So, basically, you need less
heating. you had the energy
crisis with price spikes and of course
that reduces demand. You always have
that. But even with these factors and
there is calculations from science
when you reduce these factors and you
and you and you and you basically you
accept them whatever the name is
called for this kind of analyze where
you split the different factors it
shows that policies can work. So if you
set the right incentives, if you set the
right framework,
you can reduce your emissions and I
think that's important. So we
provided proof that it is important with
the right framework to finally reduce
emissions which has been growing for
years and with the greens in government
we could we were able to reduce the
greenhouse gas emissions.
>> Yeah. And it's a long-term game at the
end. So the results will be seen years
after years
>> and many of the so I'm convinced
that many of the results of these
policy decisions can be seen only in the
years to come. You are have been
involved in wind projects development.
it takes some years to develop a
project. So basically you set the right
incentive you take the political
decisions you created the law. Once you
have the law, you create this subsidy
scheme but only then these people
develop the project and so basically
they've built they have the permitting
then you have to then you have to find
the companies.
>> So you need a the time frame of I
don't know 5 years maybe longer so
many of the wind engines will be
built in the years to come. So also lots
of the results of the legacy if you want
will be seen in the years to come which
of course will the new government will
be claiming that this is their
success obviously as I would do it too.
but that's what we will see. We will
see lots of more renewable energy
installations in Austria resulting
into this clear investment framework
that we established. Stephan, you
have had a inspiring career and most
of our community is also young people
who who because energy transition is not
just a transition for from
non-renewable sources to renewable
sources but also it's a job transition.
A lot of young people are getting into
the getting into the energy field.
what advice you would give them the
young engineers to get into policy? Why
having this robust experiences are
more important?
what advice would I give? I would say
study your technical continue with your
technical studies.
>> I think it's important to understand how
it works. I think that's the basic. Once
you understand how it works, you can
make it better.
>> Yeah.
>> but as you are mostly studying
engineering, I assume at the tech
university, I would just encourage you
to go go on with your with your study,
finish your study, be curious and always
find once the learning curve gets
flatter again,
>> find new challenges. There can be
politics. as I said before for me it
was a coincidence that I ended in a in
in a cabernet of a minister.
>> it can be anything but be it
law or also technical studies just
continue and have a solid
I think it's very important to have a
solid foundation of knowledge. and
it's also the way you think
>> basically a university always also
builds you as a person and also you
learn to think in a certain way as an
engineer and I think we need that
so I just encourage everyone
>> continue
>> okay
>> continue your study and if you then
later on if you're brave enough to
enter into a political role or
>> brave enough. Okay.
>> Or you're brave and create your own
company or you work in project
development. I think we need as we
say all hands on deck and it's a it's
and it's it's not a transition. I
always refuse to say the word
transition. It's not a transition. It's
just it's a change. We are changing. We
are moving on. But it's similar to that
we moved on from coal to gas and to oil.
We now move from molecules to electrons.
>> So it's not so much a transition. It's
just progress. It's just
>> it's just common sense
>> and it's the progress. But for this
progress, we need new skills and we need
different skills.
>> Then the drilling skills maybe we need
well we need for geothermal.
>> We also need some drilling skills.
but you need still different skills.,
yes.
>> So, yeah, Stefan, we it have been a
pleasure to meet you also personally to
learn from you., personally, I'm I'm
curious how you got into the minister
adisement and all your career because
you said that it was like kind of
destiny maybe for other talk., but
thank you very much for
>> sure. Thank you for having me and good
luck with your project and good luck
with your podcast and good luck for your
company and for the energy bridge.
>> Thank you. Thank you.
>> Thank you.
>> Thank you very much and thank you for
the community for watching until the end
and stay tuned for our next episode. See
you.

Bridging Policy and Practice for Austria's Energy Transition with Stephan Renner - TEB Podcast S1E6

Need for Faster Permitting

Stakeholder Engagement is Key

Long-term Planning Required

Decentralized Energy Systems