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S2E07

How Podero helps Utilities Turn EVs, Heat Pumps & Batteries into Revenue | Chris Bernkopf

with Chris Bernkopf· Podero· 55m

TL;DR

Demand-side flexibility software enables energy retailers to monetize residential distributed energy assets on day-ahead and intraday markets rather than relying on grid reinforcement alone. Vienna-based Podero integrates household batteries, heat pumps, and EV chargers via OEM APIs to aggregate and optimize load anti-cyclically against wholesale volatility. By offering guaranteed consumer savings and partnering directly with utilities, software platforms avoid hardware deployment bottlenecks while delivering flexible trading capacity.

Synopsis
In this episode, Podero co-founder Chris Bernkopf discusses how software enables utilities to transform residential distributed energy resources—including heat pumps, EV chargers, and home batteries—into virtual power plant revenue streams. Bernkopf details Podero's B2B model of providing automated trading signals and device steering across wholesale day-ahead and intraday markets, while absorbing performance risk through guaranteed savings for retail consumers. He outlines why software integration with OEM APIs is scaling faster than physical gateway hardware, the nuances of navigating high-volatility wholesale dynamics in Central and Eastern Europe, and his long-term view on how residential flexibility aggregation will eventually compress market spreads into flat, near-zero electricity costs.

Key metrics

by the numbers · 6
  • 24%
    projected increase in European electricity system flexibility requirements by 2030
  • 25%
    reduction in energy costs for flexible consumers using Podero's software
  • €120
    guaranteed annual savings per connected household battery
  • €1.50
    guaranteed savings per full electric vehicle charge
  • €60
    guaranteed seasonal savings per connected residential heat pump
  • 10%
    portion of company funding spent to recall installed hardware gateways

Topics

7 tags
flexibilityvirtual power plantsdemand responseutilitiesenergy tradingsmart metersdistributed energy resources
Stats
Duration
54m
Words
12.1k
Questions
74
Speakers
3

Daniel Schaub · Chris Bernkopf · Rahul Mishra

Timeline

10 chapters

  1. Grid Flexibility and Bernkopf's Background

    The hosts introduce the rising demand for grid flexibility and Bernkopf shares his transition from physics research at CERN to founding startups.

  2. Austria and the European Regulatory Landscape

    Bernkopf explains why Europe's liberalized and competitive retail energy market offers a strong environment for scaling energy software.

  3. Enterprise Sales and Utility Champions

    The discussion covers the dynamics of enterprise sales to large utilities and the necessity of finding internal organizational champions.

  4. Podero's Core Architecture and Trading Mechanics

    Bernkopf breaks down the six-step operational process connecting consumer assets to wholesale trading desks via API integration.

  5. Guaranteed Savings and Value Proposition

    Podero's shift from variable benefit claims to fixed guaranteed savings for batteries, EVs, and heat pumps is detailed.

  6. Strategic Pathways to Accessing Flexibility

    Bernkopf outlines the trade-offs between hardware installation, starting a neo-utility, OEM partnerships, and partnering with incumbent retailers.

  7. Local Grid Congestion and Anti-Cyclical Steering

    The conversation addresses transformer constraints and why automated flexibility mitigates existing evening demand peaks rather than worsening them.

  8. Market Dynamics in Central and Eastern Europe

    Bernkopf analyzes the structural drivers of market volatility in CEE and the growth of distributed solar across the region.

  9. Pivoting Away from Hardware Gateways

    Bernkopf details why Podero recalled 500 installed hardware gateways to commit entirely to a cloud-to-cloud API software strategy.

  10. Quick Fire Round

    Bernkopf shares his views on deploying existing tools over new breakthroughs, local digital markets, and career advice for technical founders.

Key insights

4 takeaways
  • 01

    Residential DER aggregation competes on physical execution rather than proprietary trading algorithms

    Bernkopf points out that wholesale markets frequently experience periods of very cheap or negative pricing, but the primary barrier to capture is physical access to steerable assets. Software aggregators that can reliably control fleets of distributed devices execute trades that conventional market participants cannot physically replicate.

  • 02

    Pure cloud API steering outperforms hardware gateway deployments for home flexibility

    Physical gateway installations create heavy operational burdens and vulnerability to regional supply chains, prompting Podero to spend 10% of its initial funding to recall hardware. Leveraging direct cloud-to-cloud integrations with OEM APIs allows aggregators to scale across multiple European jurisdictions without physical field interventions.

  • 03

    Utility partnerships offer the most scalable distribution channel for residential VPPs

    Building a new retail utility incurs customer acquisition costs around €100 per user, while OEM partnerships lack direct wholesale trading licenses. Partnering directly with incumbent retailers leverages their existing customer bases, balance sheet capability, and regulatory licenses while solving their balancing penalty risks.

  • 04

    Residential flexibility operates anti-cyclically to alleviate local grid congestion

    Rather than causing local substation overloads by charging simultaneously, automated flexibility shifts EV and battery loads away from default evening peaks toward troughs of low demand or high renewable generation. Because connected household devices run on independent schedules and states of charge, software-steered demand flattens rather than exaggerates grid stress.

Pull quotes

5 quotes
  • We speak the language of all the different OEMs, be it from, you know, Asia to to Europe to to America. all we speak we speak car, we speak heat pump, and we speak battery as well.
    Chris Bernkopf
  • It just matters that nobody can actually use it, so in a way, the the there's sort of low competition for cheap power at the moment, because nobody no there's not enough people actually being able to access and use you know, cheap power, because they don't have the flexibility.
    Chris Bernkopf
  • So if you say like Octopus is our best salesperson, and sort of our worst enemy is doing nothing.
    Chris Bernkopf
  • Now, if you don't have flexibility in your country, it means you will not be able to operate a grid in 20 years. But, of course, if you have it, it's sort of a base stack that is necessary to even exist as a retailer in in 10 years.
    Chris Bernkopf
  • So, you're better off partnering and actually advancing the industry, because you'll find a way to sort of both make money, especially with the huge clients that we deal with.
    Chris Bernkopf
Transcript295 cuesClick a timestamp to jump
  1. Daniel Schaub: Welcome to a new episode here in The Energy Bridge. Uh today, thank you for having us in your office. We are in the office of Podero with uh with Chris Bernkopf. And um well, we were impressed with your profile when you we started to make the questions. And we can mention that you were technical physics from TU Wien, data scientist from CERN, and today we are going to explore the importance of demand control in the actual or the current situation in electrical grid. The European Commission projects that flexibility requirements across across Europe electricity system will increase 24% in in 2030, in almost 300 terawatt hours. And we are adding more and more electrical demand, but we have intermittent generation. And as I heard in another article, that it's uh you can name renewable energy intermittent, but fossil fuels are volatile.
  2. Chris Bernkopf: Mm-hmm.
  3. Daniel Schaub: I like the the concept. So, we have now more electrical demand with more intermittent generation. So, now we cannot rely anymore in gas power plants to reach the peaks, but instead of that, we could shape the demand in the way that we want. So, that's why we're here. We are you are an expert in virtual power plants and how to control the demand from homes. And the important thing is that you are collaborating with the current industry, so you are powering utilities. So, the question of this episode it's we are plowing millions of new electrical vehicles, heat pumps in a power grid that it was created for a system 50 years ago. So, these devices are going to crash our local transformers, or can softwares turn our homes into exact virtual power plants needed to save the energy transition? So, thank you for having us today, Chris. Very looking forward for knowing more about you.
  4. Chris Bernkopf: Absolutely. Thank you for coming.
  5. Rahul Mishra: Chris, I mean, after the the the heavy introduction that Daniel just made about the the topic and about you, and we we have you as a somebody who went to CERN with Y Combinator, and somebody who's a physicist and knows the physics of the power grid, tell us about yourself. Where did you start? Uh what did you study? And how did you become the rookie that you are?
  6. Chris Bernkopf: Well, I guess I I started out in Vienna, uh studying physics at TU Vienna, uh before then um moving to CERN, uh because I want to learn to how to code and uh got the opportunity there to do data science and machine learning. But I always wanted to do sort of uh my own thing, and uh I started selling t-shirts or you know retail merchandise uh to small sports clubs when I was 18, uh and did that for a couple of years. But I always, you know, wanted to steer the software path, so went to CERN. Uh and then I quickly realized that uh science wasn't for me. It was sort of very much uh single-player mode,
  7. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  8. Chris Bernkopf: uh where you wouldn't really collaborate, and then I couldn't see my impact sort of um being being that large. Um, you know, you'd have professors over very long careers to to basically have contributions that were, of course, important, but not sort of on the scale uh and with the output that I that I wanted, and so I um, you know, moved to Berlin, uh found a company in the procurement space uh optimizing supply chains for for large um large companies like
  9. Rahul Mishra: And when was that, when you moved to?
  10. Chris Bernkopf: Uh that was probably in uh uh 2018-ish, and then I started uh my my old company uh around 1 and 1/2, 2 years later.
  11. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  12. Chris Bernkopf: Uh and then I did that for a couple of years, but I quickly realized that I want to work in in the climate space and you know, that's how Podero got started. Uh, I wanted to find a way
  13. Rahul Mishra: You You started it in Berlin?
  14. Chris Bernkopf: Uh I actually started at uh when I was sort of um homeless, you could say, right? I was I was I was moving a lot around, just uh meeting people, um just living in people's flats and like on couches and moved actually moved back to my parents' for a month as well. And uh yeah, it got started sort of in the in the interaction with all these people in Europe, uh where we want want to find ways to basically accelerate the energy transition
  15. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  16. Chris Bernkopf: uh in a profitable way, right? Because if it's not profitable, then you have to count on people's good will, which will never scale across, you know, across all people and across the world. Uh and that's how Podero got started.
  17. Rahul Mishra: Amazing.
  18. Daniel Schaub: You in CERN were working already, because that was 2017?
  19. Chris Bernkopf: I think so, yeah.
  20. Daniel Schaub: Yeah. So, and you were working already with machine learning to predict electron trajectory. I was like fascinated with the topic and. But how do you move from there, and also you wanted to be astronaut, so how do you um move from research and scientist to a super-regulated topic as energy?
  21. Chris Bernkopf: Well, I guess uh yeah, at the time at CERN, we were uh looking into um You know, there's There's uh The detector works like an onion, and one of those detectors uh is specifically for electrons,
  22. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  23. Chris Bernkopf: and uh and the forecasting was around the trajectory through that detector. Now we we forecast the trajectory of many electrons
  24. Daniel Schaub: Wow.
  25. Chris Bernkopf: uh towards towards um, you know, devices in houses. Um I think the uh we were trying to find a problem that's uh, you know, at on the sort of edge of what is technically possible. And when we started Podero, it was uh, you know, the first devices were just being able to be access them via API. Um you could see that the market had liberalized. You could see that power prices were were were getting much higher, and uh it was possible to, you know, trade even with small assets um in aggregate. And so, we we wanted to do something that was sort of technically hard
  26. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  27. Chris Bernkopf: uh at the edge, but not sort of impossible. Uh and the and sort of in the preceding one or two years or the time we started, these these devices gradually went online um and manufacturers started opening up APIs, and so we thought it's the right uh thing to start.
  28. Rahul Mishra: And you you've already been to Y Combinator uh from your previous startup, what was it about?
  29. Chris Bernkopf: Uh it was uh a procurement startup, so basically we were uh analyzing uh uh Basically, uh you know, a large large companies like BASF or ABB, they would come to us and say, you know, "We want to buy €3 million of screws um with that specific material, with that coding, in that shape. Uh can you find the top suppliers in the world for that?" And so, we basically scraped the Internet
  30. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  31. Chris Bernkopf: uh and then sort of find the the five best ones and uh do that, of course, repeatedly and uh and quite data-driven.
  32. Rahul Mishra: And and in your journey, uh what we see is that you first went abroad. You did things abroad, and you came back to Vienna. Because people usually have like a different route. They start something here, and then they just find it that in Austria, in Europe uh, because it's super-regulated, they would like to go to US because it's easier to move around. Uh what would you tell about that experience, and and how how do you see like scaling a company like you are doing in Vienna and from Vienna for the for Europe and for the world, I guess?
  33. Chris Bernkopf: Yeah, for sure. The the sort of reason uh we started in Austria is actually because of a a grant program called FFG,
  34. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  35. Chris Bernkopf: which uh gave us a sizable grant. It It doubled our runway uh in in the first sort of uh 1 1/2 years.
  36. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  37. Chris Bernkopf: And uh it so just makes sense to to live here. Um on the um sort of on the market side, I think there's a lot of things where the US is very strong, um be it AI, be it space, um but for energy, I think there the market is um sort of the best regulated market is probably in Europe, um where, you know, the most companies can participate, where the sort of the where you have the highest competition.
  38. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  39. Chris Bernkopf: Uh and so that actually is a sort of much easier to start here, given that um, you know, you have um higher energy costs overall, uh but also you have um, you know, we have many utilities competing for business for for end-consumer, retail business,
  40. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  41. Chris Bernkopf: uh and that means that essentially they need to have something better than the competition, and there's a high amount of competition across Europe and also it being standardized across most of Europe and being actually the the largest liberalized energy market in the world, uh that sort of uh made a decision to to start here.
  42. Daniel Schaub: And it's super interesting that a lot of companies in this field are in Vienna. And we have the hypothesis that is because you are one of the countries with most sponsor- percentage of smart meters.
  43. Chris Bernkopf: Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, I didn't know that actually when we started the company that there were so many uh uh you know energy startups in Vienna. It's actually surprising how many there are. Ideally, the the smart meter rollout proceeds also in other countries.
  44. Daniel Schaub: Mhm. And Y Combinator that that that you be part of to to found the other um startup, it's based in Silicon Valley, right?
  45. Chris Bernkopf: Yeah, exactly.
  46. Daniel Schaub: So, which would you say that is the biggest difference to apply things that you learn in a super- liberalized country like US, and bring it into Europe, and and utilities are more conservative, they is more regulated, so how was the feeling of starting something there, and then something here?
  47. Chris Bernkopf: Uh so, I started the last company in Berlin. Um but we were, of course, uh in in the Y Combinator program. But um the the customers that we had in our last startup and in this startup were actually quite similar in terms of size, um so, you know, biggest companies in in Europe. And uh for that reason, I guess, the the the learnings translate. Um but I think there's also a lot of companies you can find uh you know in any any continent that would have sort of the same um difficulties of of closing contracts, but, of course, also the same benefits in in then rolling out, because if you if you roll out with a big company like E.ON, um then, of course, the the scale is what counts. Of course, you have It's a very high fence to climb over. Uh but once you climbed over, it's it's a it's a very green pasture.
  48. Daniel Schaub: Okay, because we're going to deep to go deeper into this, but did you feel kind of uh cultural shock in in in terms of the agility of the speed that the utilities can move here in Europe instead of other country or other continent?
  49. Chris Bernkopf: I mean, I've only worked with the European utilities,
  50. Daniel Schaub: Okay.
  51. Chris Bernkopf: um but I guess the the the key uh difference between a utility that has a lot of success with our software and then one that maybe has less success is there's usually one specific person that has all of the contacts and also the necessary resources and sort of management um um approval to, you know, to to work across sort of uh sales, marketing, trading, integration, tech, product,
  52. Daniel Schaub: Mm-hmm.
  53. Chris Bernkopf: uh and it's not a person that does all these things, but a person that has the the network within their company to roll us out, and sort of that it matters much more to find this one champion and, you know, of course, ideally a a few aligned uh people in the specific departments, then to sort of you know, work with a utility with really great branding, but that might not actually be um not have that person in-house. So, I guess we, even if it's a large company, we work with a person rather than with an entity, and, of course, being a big company helps uh in this regard, but it it comes down sort of to the the few people in the organization that can actually drive change.
  54. Daniel Schaub: So, you you need an an ally inside,
  55. Chris Bernkopf: Yeah, exactly.
  56. Daniel Schaub: and then to work from inside now.
  57. Chris Bernkopf: Yeah, because they do most of the work, right? I mean, we we we build the software, we explain how it works, we we It's not really selling it, like it's it's sort of identifying their needs and and then helping them see if it's possible to fulfill that need with our software. But at the scale of those companies, it's not really even sales. Um and so, the the most amount of sales work is done by the the person inside the utility, sort of our champion, and so we're we're really the ones equipping them uh for that internal challenge.
  58. Rahul Mishra: Let's get into uh What exactly Podero means? Like, I I I mean, it's a unique name.
  59. Chris Bernkopf: Yeah, absolutely. So, it's uh It comes from "poder," which is uh power in Portuguese. Uh and I guess there's "poder" in Spanish, which means uh um that you can do something in a very bad translation, I guess, you you'll correct me.
  60. Daniel Schaub: Yes. Is poder.
  61. Chris Bernkopf: Yeah.
  62. Daniel Schaub: But it's uh
  63. Chris Bernkopf: And so, um uh I guess it, you know, uh it's a it's a word play on power uh and sort of the ability to change things, and uh I think that's what we we stand for.
  64. Rahul Mishra: Amazing. So, um when I mean you you're building a software. What uh I understood about the flexibility, about demand response um please explain a bit about like what uh for a layman uh what exactly is your role in this whole energy system, and how are you able to work with the utilities?
  65. Chris Bernkopf: The six easy steps to how Podero works. So, you know, uh well, I guess in in a in a very high level before I start this, uh Podero is a software for utilities, that means the energy retailers, and they use us to earn trading revenues in the markets,
  66. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  67. Chris Bernkopf: which they then use uh to give to consumers to basically have a better product than the competition. And of course, that solves a lot of downstream effects, like using more renewables, being you know, less CO2 impact, stabilizing the grid, um but these are sort of downstream effects of that uh that thing we provide. And and then the sort of short way it means that, one, the consumer connects their asset to our software,
  68. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  69. Chris Bernkopf: be it via white-label app, be it one of our app in the App Store, Google Play Store, online. Then, we monitor that device.
  70. Rahul Mishra: What What kind of asset, and how What's the usual size?
  71. Chris Bernkopf: All devices you find a household that are large energy consumers, so that's uh inverters and batteries, or producers,
  72. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  73. Chris Bernkopf: inverters and batteries, then electric vehicles and chargers,
  74. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  75. Chris Bernkopf: heat pumps, and soon also ACs. So, everything that has significant power usage. Like uh a fridge or a dishwasher, um next to being like very hard to control when you turn on and off, because the fridge should run always and the dishwasher should only wash when it actually needs to,
  76. Daniel Schaub: Yeah.
  77. Chris Bernkopf: um, you know, wouldn't use enough power.
  78. Daniel Schaub: So, your software have to speak many languages.
  79. Chris Bernkopf: Exactly. We speak the language of all the different OEMs, be it from, you know, Asia to to Europe to to America. Uh all we speak we speak car, we speak heat pump, and we speak uh battery as well.
  80. Rahul Mishra: Uh I mean, that explained uh one of your first customers were E.ON and uh other companies. But also uh in I we read somewhere that you you said that uh you reduce energy costs for the flexible con- consumer by 25%. What What is the math around it, and how do you work?
  81. Chris Bernkopf: Yeah, for sure. So, the the the way uh that we basically provide value to the utility is by identifying uh value streams and helping them actually, you know, earn the money. So, I guess uh coming back to the exa- the example from before, first the consumer connects the device to the to uh to our software.
  82. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  83. Chris Bernkopf: Then, we monitor the device. Then, we propose to utility uh what trades they should do, so that means, you know, should you trade on the day-ahead market, in the intraday market. Uh when exactly is that trade right? Can the devices actually do it? Then, the utility makes that trade as a step four. Step five is we connect uh we we control the assets according to those trades, and then as a sixth step, the utility actually sends those revenues to consumers. Uh and so, our role essentially is in um analyzing the markets, be it the day-ahead market, the intraday market, soon also the balancing, balancing energy market,
  84. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  85. Chris Bernkopf: and then figuring out what trade exactly the utility should do uh because, of course, we know what the device will do in the future, or the device fleet in this case, uh and then the utility executes those trades. I guess there's the um you all know it from sort of the um best large BESS system what they can earn, and uh depends on the company, but they sometimes claim anything from sort of €150,000 per megawatt hour per year to 300 on the high side.
  86. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  87. Chris Bernkopf: Um and that's sort of a BESS system where you don't you don't have PV, um you maybe even have a good contract to the grid,
  88. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  89. Chris Bernkopf: um and so you have sort of have no no household consumers. Now, of course, when you you connect a flexible asset like a household, say in the case of battery, you have to account for the PV, you have to account for the household, you have to account for grid fees, you have to account for the fact that uh the consumer will want to use their own solar power because it's essentially free, right? They've already bought the PV system.
  90. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  91. Chris Bernkopf: All power that they get from it is free. And so, when you account all for this, of course, it's not as much as a BESS system, but we also don't need to compete to them on sort of beating a BESS provider. We just need to beat them for the individual trade, which we, of course, can do. Uh and that's where we get to the 25%. We actually now have moved to a system where we guarantee savings, so that means if you connect as an end user, as a household, a battery, then we guarantee you as an end user and the utility €120 in savings per year. For electric vehicles, it's a little bit different. There it works per charge, where we guarantee €1.50 per full tank. Uh and for the the heat pump, it's per season, where we say you get you get um €60 per heat pump per season. Uh and with those guarantees, we give the utility also the safety. Of course, now we make more money uh than that, but that's what we can guarantee to have a a very simple and explainable business model.
  92. Daniel Schaub: Just to understand it better, where the um savings the the the savings eh come from? From the they are head market, or more in the balancing grid market?
  93. Chris Bernkopf: So, at the moment, we're in the day-ahead market and on the intraday market. Uh we're not yet on the balancing energy markets, although we do have the the license, for example, for aFRR for batteries. Um Reason is also is because we've been seeing the revenue shift from the uh balancing uh you know balancing markets to the intraday market. Um also, of course, the the, you know, all EPEX markets are quite standardized,
  94. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  95. Chris Bernkopf: uh and so we can do it in Belgium, and in Austria, and in Sweden, and uh and in Portugal. Uh and so it's sort of we we've built the the one integration to that system. And now we can trade. Of course, we need to integrate with every trading system of the utility, and with all the brands. But at least sort of it takes away one complexity. Um but balancing energy is definitely planned for the year and will will announce it hopefully um soon, and then, of course, tell you about it as well.
  96. Daniel Schaub: Okay, that's great. If if it's before the forum in June, you can
  97. Chris Bernkopf: Yeah.
  98. Daniel Schaub: you can present it.
  99. Chris Bernkopf: Absolutely.
  100. Daniel Schaub: And just to uh also know that in Europe is an important topic, personal data, the GDPR.
  101. Chris Bernkopf: Mm-hmm.
  102. Daniel Schaub: How do you manage this all the information from users, because you are in in the middle of utilities and end users. So, you are managing a lot of data, which is private. So, how do you manage it?
  103. Chris Bernkopf: Yeah, so the law says don't save what you don't need, and that's also a smart idea, because if you don't save it, you can't leak it, uh like it can't be you know, it can't be stolen. Um so, we only really save the bare minimum. Um that's sort of the first step. I mean, most of the data we save is sort of, you know, what does the inverter produce?
  104. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  105. Chris Bernkopf: Of course, it is very sensitive to not leak uh you know, not not sort of um be um you know, nobody steals that data, um but essentially we're able to anonymize it except for sort of very few places. Um Now, of course, we're penetration-tested. We adhere to some security um rules. Um On the sort of legal side, it means that we're a subprocess of the utility, which means that uh we define exactly what data is saved
  106. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  107. Chris Bernkopf: and then what we can use it for. Uh and ideally everything that's not necessary, we don't uh don't save. Uh but other than that, we have sort of the the standard security um protocol setup that that sort of any company in our space has as well.
  108. Rahul Mishra: And just to understand the implementation for software, it also for the end consumer that they they have their hands on Podero as a software?
  109. Chris Bernkopf: Uh well, there's two ways. So So, either they use our our app, which is in the App Store, the myPodero app,
  110. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  111. Chris Bernkopf: or you use uh our APIs to integrate into your own software, so larger companies like E.ON, they have uh their own software, they have uh, you know,
  112. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  113. Chris Bernkopf: Apple app, their on Google Play Store app. Uh and we are in the background, but they can't see us. We're sort of the invisible partner that makes it work. But, of course, the the utility wants to own the user interface, and so our app is mostly used for POCs and to get started.
  114. Daniel Schaub: We mentioned that in Vienna, we have seen a lot of companies doing something similar, but with a completely opposite approach, because it's uh like disrupting how the utilities traditionally works. But you are powering them. You are working together with them. So, how that idea came from, and also why did you choose this approach?
  115. Chris Bernkopf: Yeah, for sure. So, that there's uh um there's four ways you can work uh to to access the the revenue of these flexible assets. Now, you you can found your own utility and be like sort of a new utility. You can work with the manufacturers. Um you can work as an installer, um or you can support utilities. Now, installation business is is sort of very volatile based on the the local regulations, and and so um one year, there's a PV boom because like PVs are subsidized. The next one is heat pumps. You have to switch. Uh it's very hard to stay you know to be consistent. It's it's probably not a software play. Um and uh there are some companies, of course, that have done really well, like 1KOMMA5°,
  116. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  117. Chris Bernkopf: but, of course, also those are going into flexibility. Now, you could uh found a new utility, but for that, you need large sums of capital, because you need to, you know, pay approximately uh €100 per per end user. And so, acquiring the the size of, you know, E.ON would take you then um, you know, billions. Uh Then, you could work uh with OEMs, but thing is, then you can't really trade in flexibility markets, because you don't have uh uh the the necessary licenses.
  118. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  119. Chris Bernkopf: And so, then you're end up with a utility which already have the consumers. They have the problem of uh having to defend, you know, sort of their their business model. They have to the they have to um, you know, deal with imbalance costs. They're already seeing all the the challenges and sort of the effects of flexibility
  120. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  121. Chris Bernkopf: and working in that market, and of course, they have the scale to really out uh to very large fleets. And so, we thought the you know, if we want to have the highest impact and touch the the most people in instead of a positive way, uh the utility was sort of the obvious choice.
  122. Rahul Mishra: And and let's talk about the numbers of rolling out. So, uh uh how many users are you looking at for currently?
  123. Chris Bernkopf: So, we're not allowed to disclose that for utilities. Um but, of course, uh if if we if we release case studies, I'll I'll let you know.
  124. Rahul Mishra: So, moving on that uh about the the elephant in the room, which is grid convention uh congestion. I I was uh I was at a meeting just before coming to you and we were uh talking about data center there. There are multiple assets uh that is getting uh like you have in- inverter, heat pump, EV charges, and your job at Podero of the whole AI advance trading, how do you talk to how much of it it's like getting to a power wall or talk to like a heat pump? I mean, how do you balance that whole chaos?
  125. Chris Bernkopf: Uh well, I guess it's divide and conquer, um but, of course, the the key part is in finding um in finding um you know, permutations that are easy to do at the beginning, um and say, "Well, I want to do this one heat pump for this one client in one country," and then sort of expanding naturally if you if you if that sort of works well. Um We I think a lot of our market works based on relationships, and so uh having really good relationships with the OEMs, the manufacturers, being sort of the sometimes maybe a little bit annoying, but also being sort of a helper, and sort of bringing the the software that we together um you know, serve to customers on on a high quality level,
  126. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  127. Chris Bernkopf: is our job. So, we basically are the we are the the friendly critics of all the, you know, APIs in our system, and it might even be that we connect to next to a market maker API, and their API sort of has has some kinks, and then we we try to help with that. Um So, we we try to be sort of a a voice to bring to raise the quality bar overall. Um Of course, the flip side of this, you have to account for this when you make value propositions, right? If you if you say, "Well, we're not responsible for savings, we're not responsibility for outages,
  128. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  129. Chris Bernkopf: uh we're not responsible for if the manufacturer API goes down," then you leave the utility and the end user with all that risk. And so, what we say is, no, we actually want to own the risk, and so we say we guarantee savings, and you know what you're getting with us, and we guarantee everything works. Now, of course, if we make more, that's good,
  130. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  131. Chris Bernkopf: uh and and maybe then the utility should renegotiate, but um but we want to make sure that the the baseline functionality is guaranteed, and I think that sort of sets us apart from other companies.
  132. Rahul Mishra: And and uh just going back to uh the functionality of Podero. So, because you work with uh different utilities, and are and uh are they able to uh because there's a bit of distrust in the market as well, like how they want to earn more more than the other utility in the same market as well, so how do you manage that competition between the utilities as well?
  133. Chris Bernkopf: Well, it's a it's a free market, so if you can uh if you can uh if you're better in trading, uh then it's it's better for you. I guess there's the the you know, when we started out, there was the question of um um exclusivity. Uh But then we said, "Well, if you, you know, if you don't uh buy from us, then"
  134. Rahul Mishra: Yeah.
  135. Chris Bernkopf: sort of if if you disallow anyone else from buying from us, then there are two things will happen: they will just buy from somebody else, which maybe is not as good as us, but um um you know, they at some point, they will still find a different solution. And two, of course, is through more customers, our software gets better, so if if they buy, um they they get the benefit. And thirdly, of course, if you're if you're quicker to buy, then you still have the benefit of being being first, and of course, the initial growth matters a lot, being a first mover.
  136. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  137. Chris Bernkopf: Uh and uh that has generally worked. I guess the I mean, we're of course, you're competing for uh in trading for times of cheap power,
  138. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  139. Chris Bernkopf: but the rate limiter is not how smart you are in trading, but if you can actually physically do a trade, right? So, when we shift power from, you know, expensive times to cheap times, we make a trade that nobody else can do, because nobody else has access to those assets, and you know, power is super cheap every day. Uh It just matters that nobody can actually use it, so in a way, the the um there's sort of low competition for cheap power at the moment, because nobody no there's not enough um people actually being able to access and use um, you know, cheap power, because they don't have the flexibility. So, in a way, sort of every time you can unlock a flexible asset, you're sort of competing almost unfairly with the rest of the market.
  140. Daniel Schaub: In order to to achieve your ambitious business plan, because the business case is uh technically super complex, so how much from your work it's to to train this advance AI trading, and how much is to to communicate a battery with a heat pump that they have never spoken before, the manufacturers are different, maybe different countries? So, how much is divided the job?
  141. Chris Bernkopf: Yeah, I guess the the business case is super simple. We we suggest things the utility should buy or sell, they do it and they send the money to consumers. That part is easy, but, of course, making the tech work is is very hard.
  142. Daniel Schaub: In your day-to-day, the whole your whole team, do you spend more time training the AI model to to trade, or you spend more time into um connecting or how to speak between or how
  143. Rahul Mishra: Understanding the hardware?
  144. Daniel Schaub: Yeah, exactly, like how to connect and to make them talk, a battery with a heat pump, with a PV?
  145. Rahul Mishra: And and also just a one follow-up question on that, because you you're you're getting multiple assets, and they they're multiple manufacturers and all of that, is there a um What How much of that is like similar uh in in terms of assets, and how much of that is different? So, that's why like uh to understand the hardware part as well.
  146. Chris Bernkopf: Yeah, for sure. So, you you'd assume since they're all dealing with the same physical reality that all all sort of devices should have the same APIs, uh but they don't. Uh And so there's a there's apparently a lot of ways you can describe uh the similar similar functions. I guess that would the surprised a little bit how how different the APIs were when the physical reality was the same. But, of course, now we've we've sort of mapped this quite well uh across OEMs. We have specialized teams or people for for various things, so, you know, it might be the integration, the the steering or savings, the trading, or the sort of platform that powers it all. We We essentially move from bottleneck to bottleneck, right? So, it might be that um we enter a few new markets, we have got clients in Switzerland, and now Portugal, and and a few other places, and we might need some new OEMs, or we might uh want to upgrade the API quality of a certain OEM type, and then this will be the bottleneck. Uh But it could also be that sort of we're entering a new market and it sort of requires new steering. It's It's important to not have a team where everybody is working on everything, but there should be specialization,
  147. Daniel Schaub: Yeah.
  148. Chris Bernkopf: but in order to to sort of um work mostly on sort of what the biggest bottleneck of the company is at any time, you require expertise in various areas that sort of together and solve a problem that is uh cross-domains. Now, of course, that's not always true, and not everyone in the team has to work in the biggest bottleneck. You know, there's some some things where we just need to make progress overall, be it sort of uh increasing savings, increasing forecasts, training better models to steer, training better um trading algorithms, um you know, integrating
  149. Rahul Mishra: But do you still doing that? Uh Are you still training AI, or you or you're just mostly more on the business part now?
  150. Chris Bernkopf: Uh Well, I don't personally do it, but I guess now it's uh it like people using AI models to train AI.
  151. Rahul Mishra: Yeah.
  152. Chris Bernkopf: Uh so
  153. Rahul Mishra: No, I my question was more like, are are you still involved more with the technicalities, or you enjoy more the business part?
  154. Chris Bernkopf: Uh I used to be a lot on the business side, but now, um since half a year, I've I've been uh uh in in sort of a tech role as well. Um You could call it CTO, but um I'm maybe I'm not uh I don't want to call myself that. Um I guess I I spend um most of the time uh with the product, yeah.
  155. Rahul Mishra: Amazing. Moving also to the So, you you you take care of the trading part, but there's also a physical grid. Let's say in in a neighborhood um uh the uh there comes a option that uh because of the prices, let's 10,000 cars be attached to the grid and they they simultaneously are charging, is there any infrastructure problem that could happen to the to the grid because of uh or how do you manage that?
  156. Chris Bernkopf: Yeah, for sure. I mean, that happens every night, right? People come home and they have one neighborhood, and all the EVs charge at the same time. Um So, yeah, that that problem is exists and it's it's very big. Now uh we you could assume that we're making this problem bigger, but that's not actually the case. Um since we shift, you know, when you sort of these evening peaks, everybody comes home, charges at the same time,
  157. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  158. Chris Bernkopf: they're also using their washing machine, the stove, the heat pump kicks in, solar goes down, so no more solar production. So, the um the worst peaks in the grid are not caused by a software, but they're already here, happening every day. Uh and since we are essentially You can think of our software, usually it works in an anti-cyclical way, right? Where sort of if prices drop, then we'll use more power at those times, because there's less demand on the grid.
  159. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  160. Chris Bernkopf: And so, we're usually going um, you know, there's either a lot of production, and we try to use more, or there's a lot there's a sort of low amount of consumption, and we try to raise consumption.
  161. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  162. Chris Bernkopf: So, usually we go pretty much exactly against the time. Now, of course, you could construct a scenario where it would be 8:00 in the evening and you would have um a large uh production facility go offline, say you have the the town next to the um, you know, Gigafactory in Berlin,
  163. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  164. Chris Bernkopf: uh so that the Gigafactory goes offline, no more power use, uh and now of course, you do demand response. Now, could that hurt a local sub- substation? No, they're designed uh to to to to deal with that, right? And I mean, they deal with it every day. The you know, every device is also in a different schedule, so the the chance of sort of us turning everything on at the same time is quite low, because, you know, each household is different, each battery has different levels of charge, um each consumer behaves differently, so um it it's sort of in a the the chance that we're making the the congestion worse than it is is extremely low, but, of course, we're making it better uh than it than it is currently every day.
  165. Rahul Mishra: About benchmarking again, like uh and the competition in the market. Like, let's say
  166. Chris Bernkopf: Mm-hmm.
  167. Rahul Mishra: uh the charging people who put charging infrastructure, they have their own software to optimize uh charging where where they should be able to do. Now, you have flexibility as a service, and they are uh multiple uh utilities having uh in-house software. I mean, I how do you see that going forward? And of course, you you you mentioned the free market, but of course, I I I want to hear about the business uh and how do you see the competition or
  168. Chris Bernkopf: Sure, there's uh competition in trading and there's competition against other companies. Um If you could do talk about competition in trading, um as I said before, right, if you know nobody can access the flexibility of your connected asset,
  169. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  170. Chris Bernkopf: so, of course, you're trading against the flexibility of other providers, but given the current volatility, um there's more than enough room to do volatility trading, what we what we do every day. Now, on the uh consumer side, you're you know, most connected uh the devices are not connected, right? Only a small fraction, in the few percent are connected, and so you're mostly competing against doing nothing,
  171. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  172. Chris Bernkopf: um and your biggest biggest sort of friend is somebody else doing something with another utility, which then of course, gets the heart rate of the executives in your, you know, your your sales lead utility up, and that's the best thing can happen. So, if you say like Octopus is our best salesperson, um and sort of our worst enemy is doing nothing. Um So So, we're not very afraid of um other companies. In fact, we we actually have collaborations with a couple of uh companies in our space,
  173. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  174. Chris Bernkopf: uh because we we need to get uh, you know, over 100 million devices online in Europe, um then we could de facto solve a large part of the um high energy prices, but of course, also the decarbonization.
  175. Rahul Mishra: How much of the the uh equipment that you said is online already?
  176. Chris Bernkopf: I think it's it's in a low percent, like single-digit.
  177. Rahul Mishra: Wow. Okay.
  178. Chris Bernkopf: We have a lot of work to do, yeah.
  179. Daniel Schaub: But But this is kind of European goal to have 1 million devices online?
  180. Chris Bernkopf: Uh I mean, there's there's over 100 million devices right now that are installed, right? So, it's um there's uh The potential is is not limit- limitless, but near.
  181. Rahul Mishra: Nice.
  182. Chris Bernkopf: And now, of course, everybody is installing um, you know, ACs as well uh in in sort of middle middle of Europe, maybe not in the north. Um People are getting EVs. Batteries are now taking off uh in a very large way. They've been too expensive for quite some time, but now home batteries are getting to the point where they really would start making sense.
  183. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  184. Chris Bernkopf: Um And so, the, you know, we're not even close to the amount of devices we will have. If you have um, you know, 200 to 300 million households uh in in Europe, and and each of them has, you know, somewhere between two and four assets, uh then you're looking at, you know, sort of half a billion assets, which would be, you know, four to five times what we have right now.
  185. Daniel Schaub: If 10,000 electrical vehicles are connected at at the same time, at the end, you have physical constraints in the grid. Do you have some kind of um communication with the grid operator, in in this case, APG, for example?
  186. Chris Bernkopf: Um well, I guess on the um there's the the local um transmission grid, so the distribution grids, and then there's the transmission grids. Um Most on the transmission grid side, you have very well-established uh grid flexibility programs uh or grid balancing programs. On the on the DSO side, it depends uh where you are. There's Stockholm Flex, for example, so like a local flex market exists sometimes, but not always. Um At the moment, you're only able to add devices to the grid if the grid operator allows it, right? So, if if somebody says, "Well, I I want to install a solar, you know, PV uh system," then the local grid operator, they might say no. So, there's never a case where you install something that the grid can't handle. Now, it would probably be smart to say um that we would be able to install more solar, more, you know, other systems when it's slightly above what the grid can handle in the super safest way, but actually control assets. I think we're not there yet, and the reason we're not there yet is because the these softwares is probably not there yet for for um grid operators to take that leap of faith. Um But, of course, the It depends on the market, but in France, you have Effacement, which, you know, is basically congestion on the on the days where you have the most heating road usage, mostly in the winter. In the UK, you have a similar effect. Uh and so, these these programs exist. The companies in our space are going to help make the grid more resilient. Um And sort of what we're currently doing is is making making it bit more difficult for grid operators to to catch up.
  187. Daniel Schaub: Just going to the Central and Eastern Europe region.
  188. Chris Bernkopf: Mm-hmm.
  189. Daniel Schaub: Um We knew recently that in Czech Republic, for example, I don't remember well if it was 40 or 50% of the grid for households, it is still trifasic.
  190. Chris Bernkopf: Mm-hmm.
  191. Daniel Schaub: With three phases. Do you think that it could have a special impact, because you don't have unbalance when the house have trifasic, because the transformer are balanced, and all the system is more balanced. Do you see there an advantage for the grid to be used, or or not?
  192. Chris Bernkopf: I guess it depends how you install the local asset, um you know, so the you so it's um It's very hard to say, but I guess the uh Eastern Europe is a very interesting market, because you had a a lot of sort of coal and maybe gas um in the in the past, but now you've seen a rise of PV in in many of the countries, um and uh, of course, you have a lot of ACs. So, for example, there was a huge uh power outage in the Balkans, I think 2 years ago, uh and so you see that, you know, flexibility could have helped there uh in reducing the um the strain in the grid in the in the times of highest demand in the summer. And now, I guess, the the next big thing when you when you sort of add batteries to the mix. So, on on solar, I think a lot of companies are actually doing uh countries are actually doing good. Um in Romania, for example, you have the highest volatility in the market than all of Europe, uh and so that just shows you the potential of of CEE, yeah.
  193. Daniel Schaub: So, more more volatility? No. Volatility?
  194. Rahul Mishra: Volatility.
  195. Daniel Schaub: Volatility, the better.
  196. Chris Bernkopf: Uh well, not for the I guess uh ideally, and what I sort of see in in maybe 10 years happening is that we we will be optimizing most devices on the market, right? Uh and, of course, there will be large battery systems, and and many other ways to do flexibility. And uh in the end, the the power price should be flat and extremely low. Um Going in the direction of ideally, power should be so cheap that you basically only paying for the grid. Um Now, that there's a long road to go there, and until then, volatility is very lucrative for those who can actually benefit from us, which is the end users who work um with companies that have Podero. So, if you're an end user, you have a battery, now, of course, you're you're getting a lot of money for the volatility that's in the market, but, of course, overall, we want to make the grid more stable, we lower costs, uh and we want to lower sort of the energy prices overall. Uh and and for that, I guess, we're volatility um is something that we have to deal with, and luckily, we can deal with it in a profitable way.
  197. Daniel Schaub: So, but that is a big bet. So, you say that in the future, energy consumption will be more like a Netflix subscription instead of pay-per-view? Kind of.
  198. Chris Bernkopf: Well, it's it's I guess, if you look at the last uh 35 years of uh how, you know, solar panels have have reduced in costs so steadily that it's um it's reasonable to assume it will go on for some time. Uh and if you're looking how cheap solar power is already produced right now, um today in in Europe,
  199. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  200. Chris Bernkopf: um not even talking about places where it's even sunnier, um those prices are far lower than anything we've seen. And so, uh it is not unreasonable to assume that, you know, solar panels will get cheaper, that batteries get cheaper, um and of course, that more flexibility will be available. Of course, we might use more power, uh but will it really use as much power as will add uh in terms of solar, uh and also wind, which is uh not not that expensive either? Um It It seems uh reasonable to assume that power prices could drop uh quite significantly, and in the end, we sort of don't believe we'll be a volatility trader, but we will be uh sort of like uh in a cell phone tower, you have different software providers to basically make sure that the system works overall. Now, if you don't have flexibility in your country, it means you will not be able to operate a grid in 20 years. Um But, of course, if you have it, it's sort of a base stack that is necessary to even exist uh as a retailer in in 10 years.
  201. Daniel Schaub: Interesting. I mean, you have the vision of how is Yeah, we we have received this kind of similar thought that it's going to be flat in some point, but it's uh
  202. Chris Bernkopf: We're working on it, yeah.
  203. Daniel Schaub: We are in the transition.
  204. Chris Bernkopf: Yeah.
  205. Daniel Schaub: So
  206. Chris Bernkopf: And I guess the nice thing in the transition is you you can get paid for helping, right?
  207. Daniel Schaub: Mm.
  208. Chris Bernkopf: When When we sort of uh you could say sort of uh uh a rich household that can afford a battery um can now help everybody else pay lower prices. And and reduce the the energy that is, you know, produced by gas, because when you sort of you know, you feed into the the the peak, and you then charge at at the trough, then it means that you don't have to turn on the the gas per peaker plant. It means that the demand for the highest electricity prices is lower. Uh and so
  209. Daniel Schaub: The emissions are lower as well, the factor.
  210. Chris Bernkopf: Yeah, exactly. And so, the the people who are first movers that are buying those devices right now, they're sort of helping overall society in reducing the the costs for energy.
  211. Rahul Mishra: Also, on the other side, because there it's not just technical challenge, but also kind of a business challenge for for startups. You are scaling a climate tech startup in in Vienna, and last year, you raised a lot of money, 5.5 million. What do you think is the biggest bottleneck for scaling a climate tech company uh energy uh startup in in Austria, in Europe?
  212. Chris Bernkopf: A hard question to answer um sort of in a general answer. I guess we we see ourselves as a energy tech company. Um The nice thing is that sort of the climate benefit happens as a byproduct of the work we do
  213. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  214. Chris Bernkopf: in reducing costs. I guess we found it um So, we're a remote company. Um Um We have an office in Vienna where we have a lot of the commercial team,
  215. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  216. Chris Bernkopf: but tech-wise, we're distributed across Europe, uh which works well for us. Uh But sort of there there was the hiring challenge at the beginning. Now, of course, at the beginning, we probably also were not a company with a good brand, um or that was sort of um had a had a lot of arguments for to work at. Uh I think we've improved it so far.
  217. Rahul Mishra: We We recently published a a a workforce challenge uh study, like where exactly uh Do you find right talent here? I mean, you're you're spread out, you said. You have a lot of people uh remotely as well, but do you feel that there's a skill force challenge in the energy sector?
  218. Chris Bernkopf: I mean, we um we we've actually hired the people we've hired in the energy sector have been we've actually found them in Austria to to a large extent.
  219. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  220. Chris Bernkopf: Um I guess it's, but most of our talent is not from the energy sector, but sort of to solve the specific technical and sort of commercial challenges, um and so it's sort of more on the, you know, engineering side, or be it on sort of the the the sales, commercial side. Um And then sort of on the um you know, there's only so many energy experts you need versus sort of how many uh engineering experts you would need in that company.
  221. Rahul Mishra: And and you you have a very international team, right? Like, where where
  222. Chris Bernkopf: Yeah.
  223. Rahul Mishra: Yeah.
  224. Chris Bernkopf: Uh we're like um 15, 16 nationalities uh in
  225. Rahul Mishra: Wow.
  226. Chris Bernkopf: So, like most of Europe, we cover. Uh yeah. Which is nice, because we have to translate everything in a couple of languages, which, of course, the AI does the the the heavy lifting, but then somebody has to read it. Uh and it's always nice to have somebody to talk in your language.
  227. Rahul Mishra: And and you have English at your at the language in the office?
  228. Chris Bernkopf: Yeah, exactly, yeah. So like when when two German speakers usually speak English to each other, because everybody else Like, if somebody would maybe listen in and want to add some comments, then it would be really bad if uh, you know, if they didn't speak in uh in English, yeah.
  229. Rahul Mishra: But, uh uh we we also see like uh the the transition cannot wait for the uh for the language. So, we we need to have a unified language, so that's why we are also putting all our forums and and talks in English, and based out of here.
  230. Chris Bernkopf: Yeah, I mean like, you know, people that the like I think it's uh we almost never meet somebody that that is not sort of on a business English level in Europe. It's It's very rare. Um It It's like, usually it's very shocking if it happens.
  231. Rahul Mishra: Yeah.
  232. Chris Bernkopf: Um, yeah.
  233. Daniel Schaub: Before going to the final quick fire round questions, um now we are seeing Central and Eastern Europe region.
  234. Chris Bernkopf: Mm-hmm.
  235. Daniel Schaub: Are you thinking about expanding there, because they don't they are not too much digitalized, they don't have too much energy um smart meters? So, how how do you see the region as a whole in the next years?
  236. Chris Bernkopf: Uh yeah, for sure. I mean, we uh I guess we already work in in Eastern European countries, so for us uh, we're already there, uh working in Hun- Hungary, uh Romania, um other ones that I can't mention yet, but um,
  237. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  238. Chris Bernkopf: you know, no, it's a it's a good market, uh especially like that the volatility is quite high, uh which means there's a is a problem to solve, right? Um Which also means that they're actually um the the transition to energy is further than some people might expect, right? So, it's here, for example, Poland is using so much coal, but it's, you know, it's actually the case that um many of the countries have invested significantly in solar, uh and some also in wind, uh and and that sort of is recognizable in the volatility um especially in the day-ahead or intraday markets, um that they actually have made investments, and now we do the next step instead of uh making the power making power more flexible, so that you can actually reduce volatility overall, and then it reduce prices. So, I think it's uh it's definitely uh given sort of inverters and ACs, and now also coming in uh electric vehicles and batteries, uh it's uh it's to us, it's very interesting, yeah.
  239. Daniel Schaub: Well, what do you think about the business model or of offering hardware to the users? Like, offering heat pumps like, electrify more, or I can install you smart meter. Um It's more capital intensive, but how do you see that could it work, or is more um uh how do you say, risky?
  240. Chris Bernkopf: Uh I mean, you have uh very successful companies in Europe doing it, uh for example, um uh 1KOMMA5° or uh Enpal,
  241. Daniel Schaub: Mm-hmm.
  242. Chris Bernkopf: so it's um all four business models that I sort of all four routes to take in the market to access flexibility are valid, and uh we see that all of them are working uh to to a large degree very well. Um I guess it's more of a decision of where you believe you will have the best chance uh as a company overall, where you can deliver something unique that nobody else has,
  243. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  244. Chris Bernkopf: um more than sort of saying, you know, building installation companies back, definitely not the case. Um It's just that we sort of, we believe we're good at software, and at at the talking and helping uh utilities, and helping like large, you know, corporate clients, uh and so we we try to do what we're best at, and and somebody else is probably really good at operations, and that would be done installed business. It's just not what uh what our sort of uh secret sauce or specialties.
  245. Daniel Schaub: Okay, so you are focusing in software?
  246. Chris Bernkopf: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um I mean, we actually uh Downstairs, we have um uh a few, I think it's 500 gateways. We actually had hardware that we wanted to install at clients, but then we recalled it.
  247. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  248. Chris Bernkopf: It uh We spent 10% of our funding to recall our gateways, um but it was a decision that would have otherwise killed us, because it was um so hard for us to install gateways uh in those households uh that it was sort of, you know, we we had to Sometimes you have to um let go of an idea uh in order to save the the ship.
  249. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  250. Chris Bernkopf: Um And so, uh we we will not pursue hardware ourselves. But of course, we're actually partnering with companies that are sort of leading in Europe uh on the hardware side, uh to basically offer a a full solution to our customers. And that's what I said about partnering, you know, you you you It's sort of when you start a company, you might be worried about all the competition, but uh startups die of uh suicide, not of murder.
  251. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  252. Chris Bernkopf: So, you're better off partnering and actually advancing the industry, because you'll find a way to sort of um both make money, uh especially with the huge clients that we deal with.
  253. Daniel Schaub: Now that I understand more your business model is um you rely a lot in internet.
  254. Chris Bernkopf: Mm-hmm.
  255. Daniel Schaub: So, what would happen in a blackout of internet? Like, thinking in energy security situations that are that can happen in in a blackout, or or only internet out?
  256. Chris Bernkopf: There's sort of the larger answer, um and then a sort of the reality of when you want to control an asset. So, um if you want to control an asset, um you need to send some information on prices or grid congestion. Those need to go via some system, that's probably going to be the internet. There's other ways to do it, but we're we can't really roll them out properly, or like, maybe somebody's trying, but it's not really the reality. So, um you can now say, "Well, I can have a gateway and I'll control um I'll control the device locally," but like based on what, right? What are you going to control it on? Uh If you need prices or grid congestion,
  257. Daniel Schaub: You need input from yeah.
  258. Chris Bernkopf: Yeah, like you need you sort of you might be able to do it for like a few hours, but is that really If there's a blackout, is that really still the steering method? So, sort of if if you have a blackout, you can assume that, you know, more devices are affected, and so you might have to react within 30 seconds for the um FCR market to counter uh you know, a bigger outage. If you don't have the data, what are you going to do? So, um the question is if that is actually a valid way to do it. Now, there's other ways to do it via radio. Um they don't really exist in practice, only on paper. Of course, you need to have um what actually some uh OEMs allow is to send a list of commands and you can send a schedule that can be done by the device just like this. So, even if you don't have a gateway, you can have the same benefits of a gateway in saying you don't want to send commands live, but you always send a schedule and you know that the device will act as it should for the next 19 hours, uh and then sort of tomorrow, it will sort of sto- stop working in a in a steered manner. Um But overall, I think, of course, we're very aligned with the internet. Um It's uh It's lucky that actually the uh participants the first people to uh participate in flexibility after sort of the regular power plants and large factories were the telco providers, which is why the flexibility aggregators in Austria is a subsidiary of a telco, because they have diesel generators at the cell phone towers, and those are used for grid flexibility. So, you would hope that the the internet would still be on, of course, who knows.
  259. Rahul Mishra: Yeah.
  260. Chris Bernkopf: It's also interesting that sort of a lot of people that are installing inverters, they actually have an inverter which can't run uh without uh power from the grid. So, even if you have solar power, you actually need um, you know, you need to select the right inverter and install it in a correct way to even use it without grid power. Um So, so most people that buy an inverter and a battery are not maybe aware that they can't even use it without the grid. Um I think the best thing we can do is to participate in as many markets as possible. That reduces the the risk of a power outage. It makes it much You have much more reserve to counteract something, um but I think uh working without the internet is is something that's uh I think challenging in most most sectors.
  261. Rahul Mishra: No, I I know. I mean, it's so insightful we can just go on, but we we have to respect your time as well.
  262. Chris Bernkopf: Of course.
  263. Rahul Mishra: Moving Moving to our last round what we call the quick fire round. It's not going to be too quick, but still.
  264. Chris Bernkopf: Yeah.
  265. Rahul Mishra: So, if you have to choose between a massive breakthrough, because you have uh uh I think you're interested in different uh things, so asking you this question, a breakthrough in battery chemistry or a massive breakthrough in grid software, what do you think which is going to accelerate energy transition better?
  266. Chris Bernkopf: Yeah, I would actually choose an an option C where we say we use the the things that are already there. So, we have the the devices, we have the you know, we have the markets for it. 50% is our regulation, uh and so we we can already solve the biggest challenges of the grid today with what we have. Um And sort of what it takes is um, you know, companies like ours and many others that have value propositions which take away the risk for the consumer, for the utility, for the owner of the asset. Uh And if we do that well, um then we sort of don't even need option A or B.
  267. Rahul Mishra: Mhm.
  268. Daniel Schaub: Yeah. If if you had €1 billion, how would you invest it to accelerate energy transition?
  269. Chris Bernkopf: I think I would invest it in in connectivity, um so that it can be, you know, of course, we we're we're we're compatible with most of the OEMs right now,
  270. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  271. Chris Bernkopf: um but uh we're only able to trade on sort of national um DSO market TSO markets, uh on the EPEX and spot market. It would be great to have new markets pop up in, you know, ideally every substation.
  272. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  273. Chris Bernkopf: Um And if you did that, you could greatly expand the amount of renewables that are installed, um and, of course, you know, create all these new small flexibility markets, which would greatly help us in um in basically not having to invest 100 billion or 300 billion in the grid, by taking that 1 billion and making the grid digital.
  274. Rahul Mishra: Do you think there would be in future a grid marketplace as well, because there are so many assets running to get uh a grid connectivity, but it's, as you said, is getting to be a big problem, right? But uh, getting to another, with by by 2030, you think that the average consumer won't even know what an elec- electricity tariff be? We touched upon it, but it will be entirely automated by AI?
  275. Chris Bernkopf: Um that consumers don't even know they have electricity tariff?
  276. Rahul Mishra: Yeah.
  277. Chris Bernkopf: Uh it's a good question. I guess uh that would mean essentially that um some uh AI entity or agent buys uh you know basically does most of your household chores, which I would personally very much like, um and I guess it would mean that the decisions would be quite rational according to price, and uh if you go by price, we would win. So, it would be good for our company as well.
  278. Daniel Schaub: In some interviews, you have said that to start a startup is like a archaeological excavation. What have you found in energy market since founding Podero, for example?
  279. Chris Bernkopf: I think it's um What have we found? We found so many things. We find stuff every week. But I guess it's very interesting that how active in trading this market is, right? So, you when you say trading, everybody thinks of the stock market. And they don't realize that sort of um energy markets are one massive, but also extremely like volatile, and so that there's actually um an industry that we all rely on um that is, you know, as, if not more sophisticated than than uh regular stock markets.
  280. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  281. Chris Bernkopf: Uh And that was for me the most surprising thing. Uh And, of course, also when you realize that most of the things um are downstream from energy, right? And if you think about inflation, uh if you think about war, um if you think about sort of the climate transition, energy accounts for for a large part of this, and uh there's so many many wars are fought over energy, many things have been moved through energy, and uh and being a part of sort of the substrate of makes what makes our world possible, um is is quite cool, yeah.
  282. Rahul Mishra: Amazing. And ending with this uh this highly uh exciting question and also insightful, because you you have a lot of interesting insight, and you did multiple stuff before stumbling upon Podero and you founded it, what do you say that uh what one piece of advice that you will give to physicists and or a young data scientist that they should go fa- uh found a company, or just to come into the energy tech uh market?
  283. Chris Bernkopf: I guess there's a decision you have to take when you're in university if you want to be a researcher or or not. Um And uh I guess previously, I would have would have said learn coding, but the the question is if if that is sort of the the right answer uh in this year. Uh I feel the the the traits that will probably survive the longest is being very curious, uh and I guess having very high agency. So, the, you know, even if you had the best AI, if you don't use it, it doesn't matter. Um And uh I feel that in uh in some European universities, there is a quite a good connection between the academia and commercial,
  284. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  285. Chris Bernkopf: uh and some universities it's very much missing, and they're very focused on on academia, and that could be the right path for some people,
  286. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  287. Chris Bernkopf: but uh I think the the If if I was sort of Well, I guess that's what I did. I started working at 18, and I think you should work as as soon as possible. Um You should get your hands dirty, and uh and sort of it is important to connect through people that are maybe sort of in the 5 to 10 years um age or experience above you, so that you learn sort of from osmosis,
  288. Rahul Mishra: Mm-hmm.
  289. Chris Bernkopf: uh and it's most easily done by just starting to work. So, I think sort of it's it's a it's a really bad thing to be in university until 30. Should probably work at least from 18, you know, 21 onwards.
  290. Rahul Mishra: Chris, I I feel a lot of energy from you, and this is the kind of energy we need in in this market.
  291. Chris Bernkopf: Thank you.
  292. Rahul Mishra: So, uh thank you very much for the interview. I hope you liked it as much as we uh we liked it, and I think hoping to hear more from you, uh keeping to hear from you soon as as you have like something coming up every week, just keep us informed, and we'd like to know.
  293. Chris Bernkopf: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for having me.
  294. Daniel Schaub: Yeah, super looking forward what is uh in the future for Podero, so thank you for having us in your office. And from here, we say goodbye to the community, and thank you for watching the episode until the end, and stay tuned for future interviews. See you. Bye. Ciao, ciao.
  295. Rahul Mishra: Bye.