S1E03

The Man Behind Austria's 2030 Renewable Target with Hubert Fechner - TEB Podcast S1E3

with Hubert Fechner· 62m

TL;DR

Austria's renewable energy transition is driven by collaboration and innovative technologies.

Synopsis

Professor Hubert Fechner discusses Austria's progress towards its 2030 renewable energy targets, highlighting the importance of collaboration among stakeholders. He emphasizes the role of technology, policy, and education in advancing the energy transition and the need for a circular economy in the renewable sector.

Key metrics

by the numbers · 5

95%
Austria's renewable electricity share
340 GW
Installed PV capacity in Europe
500,000
PV systems in Austria
37%
Electricity from home storage in California
15%
Projected PV electricity share in 2006

Topics

5 tags

PV technologycollaborationcircular economyenergy storagepolicy frameworks

Stats

Duration: 1h 12m
Words: 11.3k
Questions: 35

Timeline

5 chapters

Current renewable electricity share
Fechner states that 95% of Austria's electricity comes from renewables.
Installed PV capacity in Europe
Fechner mentions that Europe has about 340 GW of installed PV capacity.
PV systems in Austria
Fechner notes that there are over 500, 000 PV systems in Austria.
Home storage contribution
Fechner highlights that home storage accounted for 37% of electricity supply in California.
2006 PV electricity projection
Fechner recalls projecting a 15% share of electricity from PV in 2006.

Key insights

5 takeaways

01
Collaboration is essential for success
Fechner emphasizes that collaboration among various stakeholders is crucial for advancing renewable energy initiatives.
02
Circular economy is the future
He stresses the importance of integrating circular economy principles into renewable energy systems to ensure sustainability.
03
PV technology is evolving
Fechner predicts advancements in PV technology, potentially achieving over 30% efficiency within the next decade.
04
Energy storage is critical
He notes that energy storage solutions are becoming increasingly important for integrating renewables into the grid.
05
Public perception shapes policy
Fechner points out that societal attitudes towards renewables influence policy decisions and regulatory frameworks.

Pull quotes

4 quotes

We have at least in Austria now clearly 90 95% of our electricity coming from renewables.
Hubert Fechner
We have in Austria meanwhile more than 500, 000 photoable D systems
Hubert Fechner
They came up recently in April with 37% of electricity supplied by the home storage
Hubert Fechner
I was already at that time talking about 15% of the electricity from PV.
Hubert Fechner

Transcript1604 cuesClick a timestamp to jump

So, okay, welcome to a new episode from
Energy Bridge., today we have the
pleasure to have Professor Uber Fna.,
he's 30 years experienced solar
engineer
pioneer also here in Austria and policy
architect. So you have been advisor for
many countries being part of interesting
projects. So we are very happy to have
you here. Thank you for accepting me the
invitation. We have the entire page
written about what you have done. I'm
sure that we were not a Daniel was
not able to mention everything and but
we would like you to mention couple of
the big major things that you have
done all through in 30 years of your
experience.. Okay. Yeah. So you
were our professor in the master program
at the cubin and it was very insightful
to hear from you your all experience
about the industry and how it has
evolved. So
but what we didn't know from the
lectures it was your own experience and
and career path. So we know that you
studied electrical engineering. So
how was that period and how did you get
from energy
electrical engineering to the energy
sector?
Yeah, that's a basically quite a
funny story because I was studying
electrical engineering with a focus on
energy from the very beginning at the
technical university of Vienna.. And
of course when you go into more detail
of the future of energy supply and there
were a lot of lectures about yeah what
what the people think that the future of
energy might look like and this was
in the it's long time ago it was in the
mid of 80s of last century and of course
at that time renewable was really
nowhere. So there was no use of
renewable except of course hydropower
specifically in Austria has a big role
already there but altogether for example
solar energy was really nowhere at the
beginning and also bio energy and
all the other things are really less
than one percentage or not not even on
the market at all. And at that time of
course we were very much discussing
about the future of energy supply and we
saw and we also heard from our
professors that fossil energy might have
some limitations concerning basically
availability of resources. But more and
more it was also at that time already
clear that it's a issue of climate
that we cannot afford really to put
more and more of this carbon dioxides in
the atmosphere and so for me it was
quite clear okay this is not the future
and the other option which was offered
also at that time was nuclear energy
which of course was at the time late60s
when Chernobyl happened and at that time
it was very clear for me that okay we
have to look for alternatives and during
that time they were really mentioned to
be just alternatives. Meanwhile, it has
changed. So they are just about to
become the main sources of energy. And
this is really a period which I was able
to join through more than 30 years now
when I saw really this transition from
the very first beginning to a status
where okay we are quite far not at the
end but at least a lot has meanwhile
happened and when you see we have at
least in Austria now clearly
90 95% of our electricity coming from
renewables.. And in other European
and other European countries as well
that renewables are really taking over.
This is really very nice to see all
throughout these three decades. What has
happened? What are the obstacles? What
were all the barriers which were on this
way? And of course we have a lot of
other barriers in front of us. But
nevertheless, I think renewables is the
the only solution to care for a
sustainable future of the energy.
Well yeah that's amazing that's why we
are here and this is what is
joining us in this journey. So
so you started the industry from the
really beginning. So when you saw this
first prices with PV at the beginning
which very expensive could you envision
that this technology was going to
be as it is now or I think nobody really
could envision this in detail
how it might be possible to do it to
come to such a mainstream technology
like PVs right now because of course we
were starting the beginning to saying
the cost of 1 kilowatt hour for D is
corresponding to 14 shilling. This is
more or less one for the moment and
everybody told okay yes it might be a
niche technology it comes from space and
maybe for very remote places this might
be a solution but there is no energy
economic relevance in this technology. I
was convinced from the first moment that
u this might not be the answer because
I think we have to ask the question
where are really the technology
limitations of this technology is it the
the basic resources which is silicon
silicon is not really a big barrier
because it's available everywhere and
all the other components they are not
per se limiting the far spread of
photoable D technology
And then if you only refer to cost, you
should not do that in the very beginning
of a technology because as long as there
is no market and no economies of scale,
of course every start is expensive
somehow and not comparable to other
technologies. And of course then it took
quite a long time when PV really made it
to the markets mainly supported by a few
it's just a handful of countries at the
beginning who supported PV markets very
much.
despite there was really high prices
and not comparable prices like some
support. Yeah. all this this feed in
tariffs and other support schemes and
there was to mention mainly Germany they
did a lot in the beginning of course
Japan and other countries really
supported the technology which was very
expensive in the in the beginning but
they also believe that yes there is a
future of these technologies and we
really should be somehow thankful to
these politicians who really urged
and really brought this
development forward supporting a
technology ology only because it seems
to have a bright future and this finally
turned out to be true. Yeah. And do you
think that we are facing some similar
situation with hydrogen?
with hydrogen I won't give a
my personal revelation on hydrogen but I
only can tell you hydrogen has meanwhile
faced a lot of ups and downs in the
history.. So I remember I made my
own it was a it was a small
exposition for hydrogen in 1985 or six
or something like that when hydrogen
popped up for the first time as really
let's say a very important energy
carrier for the future and there were
some hypes in between and now there
seems another hype to be with the big
amounts of wind and solar we have right
now in order to have an adequate storage
media. But nevertheless, hydrogen for
sure has a bright future. But of course,
what we ever have to think about is
that there's a topic of efficiency
behind. Not yet. And that's why
there is a there is a future of
hydrogen. But maybe it might look
different that some of the experts have
seen 10 years ago.. And professor
Kobi
we were looking at all the work that
you have done it really intersect
engineering that you studied at
technical university of Vienna. You have
been giving a lot of policy advisory
to multiple stakeholders and you are
also very very much active in the
education domain being professor at
technical university. How do you see
a impacting your own career and also
advancing solar energy all the
collaboration that you saw coming along
and the experience that you have?
No, I think doing business in the in
the renewable field is not really a job.
It's really something which yeah
let's say has the potential really to
move something and when I think
back at the first moment I saw okay it's
not just about technology it's really
about a lot of other factors as well
it's it's technology it's policy it's
social issues it's all the behavior
of the society it's infrastructure and
so on so really a lot of factors are
coming together and so I even though I'm
I'm a technician from my education I
thought that the technology on its own
is not sufficient to bring forward
these technologies you also have to open
your eyes and have a look on other
fields where there might be an impact on
the further deployment of photoable dyke
solar thermal energy biomass energy and
so on and so on means the whole bunch of
renewable technologies is and yeah I
think this is crucial and this is of
course also very nice to have this broad
picture and also to see that individual
necessities have to be done in order to
bring forward the whole process. Yeah.
And well you have seen this old process
being also
an active architect of it. being
Austrian advisor to develop all this
technology. what would you say that
you feel most proud about in which
goals you achieved?
I don't know if I'm I'm I can say I'm
proud of something. what's what
was quite successful I think was the
collaboration with a lot of other people
who have the same idea and the same were
in the same way convinced that this is
the right way and that's why of
course the most important thing
besides scientific knowledge is of
course really to keep people informed
about what are the needs why this
this way forward towards renewable is a
reasonable one and is really the best
solution for the future. And so I think
really education of many people in many
different sectors is of course crucial.
And also what you also have to think
about is always that you with renewables
you more or less you replace another
system which was existing and is
existing and is performing quite well
but of course has some environmental
disadvantages and so on and other
disadvantages. So you compete with
an existing system which is performing
quite well. And of course you have also
a lot of stakeholders involved in this
old business. And so you also have to
face and really to try to act
in the way to really point out what are
the barriers where are the barriers
coming from because some people in
this process of energy transition might
also lose. Of course, old technologies
are disappearing, new technologies are
coming up and so this is a process
which has so many impacts on so many
stages. So it's it's really a very a
very complex situation altogether..
Yeah. Now, now that you mentioned the
like social impact, I remember professor
H told us about some kind of like
public polls to ask the society what
they felt about the new technologies
coming. that was part of a public policy
or it was more from the industry or or
it was
Yeah, policy typically follows what's
going on in the society in many cases.
It's not always good but that's the case
what we facing in the last decades at
least. So it's really about the
opinion leaders to come up with clear
and fact-based opinions and try to
transport these towards the government
towards the population towards the media
for example which have also a crucial
role in this process. So it's a really
a situation where a lot of players have
to work together in order to change
the general behavior, the general moods
towards renewables to point out what
are the advantages of a
transition. Of course, what are the
challenges? It's also very important and
crucial to talk also about the
challenges because it's not an easy way
forward. We see it through the last
decades that we have to overcome a lot
of barriers and this can only be
overcome in the way that we see a nice
picture of the future in front of us.
Where will all that lead to? That's
important that the people really see an
attractive future. And only if
why are you doing this? Because you want
to achieve another status. We want to
achieve a status where we really operate
our society without damaging the
environment in the way we did in the
last decades by using coal and oil and
all that. And really this attractive
picture of the future this is very
crucial in order to convince people yes
please I would like to join you on this
way forward. And who would if you could
explain typical value chain of PV for
a household or like for a household and
for utility scale who are the players
involved? How how does it how does the
entire process works? If someone has to
put across a utility scale PV project
and also for the household.
Yeah. talking about photoable diagon
specifics and the value chain it is
it has changed a lot in the last years
because let's say 10 15 years ago the
highest value of a photoable D system
was the PV module by far so it was up to
70% of the total cost of a PV system was
the module this has meanwhile changed
dramatically because of the quite cheap
module which are around mainly because
of China stepped in into this industry
the let's say from 2010 on and really
made the modules manufactury on big
scale and by that reducing the price of
the module significantly and now we
don't talk even more about 70 80% of the
total cost but we talk about let's say
depending on the system 20 25% of the
total cost. So you see the value lays no
more predominantly in the module just
maybe 20%, then you have inverter cost
which are little less then you might
have a lot of local value in any way
because of design of the system
installation maintenance and all that
which is typically done locally and
yeah alto together with sub construction
and so on. So you in any way you might
have a local value of a PV system in the
range of let's say between 60 and 80%
and if you really for example because we
in different parts of the world we also
try to bring up own production or at
least to boost this a little bit of
course it would be nice to increase that
local value even more and by that
avoiding transport and other costs and
so on but typically the value is
about the local value is in the range of
70% or something like that. Okay. And do
some manufact PV manufacturers
in Europe at the moment? Yeah, of course
there exist still some PV
manufacturers in Europe. even so you
for sure know that the PV industry went
down significantly dramatically let's
say in the last years because of the
very cheap manufacturing in China. And
it's not only the module, it's also
of course the inverter. But still there
exists some PV producers in Europe,
module producers, cell producers only
very very little and I think in Europe
for the moment we nearly have no
production of wafers. That means from
the pre-product of a solar cell this
comes more as 98 99% from China. but
then the next step the sale production
there are very few in Europe and then
module production even a little bit more
and of course there are a lot of
ambitions to bring up PV industry in
Europe again and the same happens to
India where is a lot going on in
incentivizing and bringing up PV
industry and the same is going on in
Turkey for example the same is going on
in the US and so on. So we see now and
this is I think very important and also
brings me to the to the fact of energy
and technology security and so that
we should not rely on just one country.
I think this is not a good approach for
for any technology to be reliable may
always 100% from one country and that's
why this diversification is really very
important not not from European
perspective only but also from other
perspectives and that's why other
countries are really also try to bring
up a PV industry and who but just one
more time if we can just take a back
step so we you said with wafer
most of the production is happening in
China. When it comes to cell production
some is also happening in Europe and
so you have EPC people who are
putting across all the all the utility
scale PV plants. So who are the
players involved from? So if you can
also tell about that. So from the
government from grid operators and where
do they buy from and who do what kind
of permits they require
for utility scale PV? Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
for utility scale PV which is now
more and more a common business of
course this really is just
about to
let's say to
be added to the conventional electricity
supply in high shares because we're
talking meanwhile about hundreds of
gawatt of capacity which for example in
in Europe We have about 340 gawatt of
installed PV capacity and this is
let's say much more than than the
capacities of other technologies that
means in many countries the capacity of
PV which is installed surpasses
capacities of hydropower coal gas or
something like that so really from the
capacity it's really huge part of course
the characteristics of photoable
dyke with typically
1, 1, 500 500 full load hours cannot
be compared to full load hours of hydro
hydro technology or something like that.
But nevertheless, of course, it changes
completely the picture and it means
that the whole energy sector is
influenced by that very much. And this
starts from the transmission grid
operator to the to the distribution grid
operators to all energy providers.
Meanwhile they offer specific
products out of renewables or specific
PV products or something like that. And
of course this in influences a lot the
whole regulation for example regulatory
authorities in all the countries they
have to take into account what is now
the difference because we have so
many production coming out of photo
and quite similar even so happening
mainly on the transmission or the on the
higher voltage levels is the wind
technology. Both technology have a
characteristics which are quite
different to the old technologies like
gas, oil or coal. because of their
intermittency and that's why we have
to really reshape the system
completely. We have to focus very much
on flexibilities and of course we don't
see only a change in the generation
side. We also see a huge change in the
consumer side meanwhile because also the
the behavior of the people and the
appliances they are using is completely
different than 10 years before. Yeah. So
we talk about of course electric
vehicles. We talk about heat pumps which
changing the heating sector quite a lot.
we're talking also mainly about the
total shift towards electricity. So
electricity which typically has only 20%
of the energy share for the moment might
increase to 50% or even more that means
50% of the total energy in a country
goes something about the way of
electricity and so electricity and
electrical engineering is really a job
of the future because everything might
or many things might might become
electrified and this is of course also
which is a dramatical change which which
has a lot of implications
and to see that going on of course
we see also this factor of
decentralization
because in former times the people
didn't care too much about energy but
now for example yeah they were just
consumers and now it's changing for
example we have in Austria meanwhile
more than 500, 000 photoable D systems at
a population of 9 million that's Means
let's say in a household of three
persons that means much more than 1
million have their supply meanwhile by
PV and there you see nearly
everybody more and more is somehow yeah
has somehow to do with photoable
D some with wind and by that of course
also trying to think about
electricity about the behavior and also
about the characteristics of this
technology and how to adapt. Why not
adapting my behavior a little bit
towards the availability of energy?
Of course, not doing individually. It
must be automated by energy management
systems or something like that. But
really taking the decision that I will
introduce a management system which
takes care that my electricity use is
highest in the time when there is a much
availability of solar wind or something
like that. This is reflected anyway by
the energy prices. So it's also a
benefit of the people to act like that.
So market is very crucial for that. But
of course I have once to take the
decision that I introduce in my home in
my commercial business something
wherever I'm I'm active I have to take
the decision once to invest in an energy
management system which takes into
account and operates in the way really
to react on the signals of the market.
Yeah. And well
in that point we start with the need of
storage for sure. Right. So but
coming back just a bit into the solar
industry which you are expert about. How
how do you see the new technologies are
coming the peropsa the agro tes or all
the innovation in terms of technology
and installation the railway that it
was this week that people putting solar
pines in railways.
I think we have first to
differentiate a little bit between
really new technology approaches and
applications
because technology we see and if you
follow the PV technology in the last 10
15 years you really see a quite you can
tell it's slow advance of the efficiency
so typically 0.5% is the annual increase
of the efficiency of a photoable
diagn module which is not that bad. That
means in 10 years you have 5% better
modules and that is what we can expect
also in future because we see and I
my personal feeling is that this
development might be might accelerate a
little bit even in the future because
now there is much more big business
behind because 10 years before PV was a
niche technology and only little
research we're going towards this
technology now it's really a big
business and everybody once have PV and
once have the best performing PV and so
And we see also in front of us some new
steps of technology which are not
really on the market like the pair of
sky all these double layer technologies
and so on. So this is not far away from
market wouldn't say it might come up in
the next two years but maybe five to 10
years we might have on the on the on the
market really PV modules which surpass
30% of efficiency and when I look back
about 10 years then we were talking
about 15%. So really this is twice the
efficiency. That means you only need
half the area to produce the same
amount of energy and this is just in
terms of technology development where a
lot of things will come up in the
future. And the other thing is of course
the applications and this is really
where I see a huge of possibilities.
What really is somehow established but
not very much on the market is the
building integrated part of photo that
means to have PV really replacing some
elements of the building skin. Yeah,
this is this is the purpose of
building integrated PV really not to be
added to the building but really to
replace to replace some parts of the
building like the facade or the roof.
the roof is a PV panel and of course is
weather protection in the same way then
producing electricity or it is the
facade or it's in future also it might
be the window where you can look out but
never nevertheless it's producing energy
somehow and so this is really one part
where I see a big future for a photoable
D as integral part of a building really
replacing a building element this is
there is a lot going on of course you
cannot compare it also from the cost
with standard PV which is on open
ground but on the other hand this is
really what a lot of acceptance is there
for integrated into a building because
it's nice to look it's aesthetic and it
does not need another space so it's
really used on infrastructure which is
already there and what we see this is
just a building part we see PV now
integrated also in the mobility sector
quite a lot by this by the sound
barriers Yes. And by this parking slot
what slots which are covered with PV
modules. So again trying to use already
existing built infrastructure a second
time by electricity production. No,
that's and this is this is just
where we are already step where we
already stepped in quite a lot and
others are very at the beginning like
the agreefortable D really to have the
approach to come together with the
agricultural sector to convince the
agriculture colleagues really to work
side by side with Fulike in the best
case also bringing up synergies. It's
not that they can just install PV and
are not too much bothered by these PV
modules. No, it's the other way around.
PV modules have really a positive effect
on their production. What what is for
example for the moment already quite
sure it came out of a lot of scientific
research that especially covering apple
plants for example apple plants or a lot
of
raspberries and so on. they really show
a positive aspect if they are covered by
PV modules but for others it's not so
clear because it's very different from
place to place from year to year and so
on but really we are just about to find
out where the synergy with the with the
agricultural sector is really given and
then it's a benefit for both sides for
the energy sector and for the
agriculture sector and that's why we
also try to find out where is this
energy given in the mobility sector okay
we also have sound bear areas is also a
synergy cars whether it's shade or
protection from rain on a on a on a
parking place. So really there are
synergies and this is where we really
have to move on. We really have to say
PV really providing synergy providing
benefits for other sectors and that
agriculture sector might not be the
least the least one maybe they have
any other sectors which might step in
later on. we talk about urban PV
really to make the cities more
nice to stay in especially when it's
very hot to have shading to create
places in the urban center with a lot of
photoable dikes and so on and really
try to find out where PV really provides
a benefit to a specific sector and there
we at the very beginning because this
door was opened only when the PV models
came down in price that significantly.
Before it was much too costly for
everything. But now since the modules
are so cheap, this opens the door and
for us as a PV researcher, we really
have to learn to talk the language of
the other sector because the building
sector has a different understanding.
They have their own language, let's say.
And we have really to learn what is
important for them. How do they see
photo? They don't care about electrons
and power and voltage. They care
about the statics. They care about fire
protection and so on. And the same is in
the agriculture sector. They don't care
about power and energy. They care about
their their their crops and all
their fruits and what and how are they
affected by BV positively or negatively.
And we have to learn to understand the
other sectors. And that's we need a
lot of I always call this the
interface knowledge. Yeah. developing
further from a poor PV specialist
towards a specialist who really
understands the language of the other
sector. But on that note just we
talked about a lot about what the
innovation that is going on in PVD the
application. What are the constraint?
you already touched upon knowing the
language of the other sectors but what
other constraints are in the application
of PV on a on a scale that we need. I
think most constraint or most barrier is
of course the knowledge about the
technology because in many large
projects a lot is coming up against
some yeah some
effects PV might have during the
lifetime or afterwards or something like
that and this is just we have to
really do a lot of education to the
people based on facts. on scientific
facts telling them what's what's going
on in during the lifetime of a of a PV
system. What's about
the lead in the in the modules? What's
about the change of the of the
energy behavior of this area after
installing installing so many fields and
other other effects which might be in
discussion that they might negatively
affect the population around or
something like that. And of course we
also have from the scientific point of
view we have to be very much factbased
and really rely on studies on good
studies. On the other way, on the other
side, I think we also have to say
very clearly that every technology has
an impact and it is also clear that PV,
wind and all the others, they have an
impact on the environment and you have
energy which you use, you have materials
which you use, you have the need to
really think about end of life and all
that. So I think we should never forget
that it's very crucial from the very
beginning to try to think is there a
possibility to save energy and not to
install any technology. Yes. Not saying
that we want shouldn't go forward with
with PV and other technologies but
really the energy the kilowatt hour
which we are not using also has big
benefits. So also think a lot about
energy saving energy efficiency and so
on. this as the first and when you use
energy then go towards the best use
from the renewable sector. Yeah. And in
that note have you seen something about
PV recycling in some research? Yeah,
sure. We also have a lot of
activities in Austria and in Europe and
also in the inter energy agency. We have
our own task dealing with recycling
affordable dyke and I think to say it
in short words recycling is a topic in
the PV sector which came up in larger
volume only a few years ago. Why?
because up to let's say 2015 the PV
sector was mainly fully concentrated on
coming to the markets to become cheaper
cheaper that it's really a reliable
energy product now we have achieved this
step and now of course we have huge
shares of photoike already installed all
around the world and now we have more
and more to think about recycling and
everybody knows recycling starts at the
design of a of a product. Yeah. So the
design process is crucial for a for a
later recycle process and that's why I
would say only in the last five six
seven years some companies really
tried to focus more on the recycling
issue which starts as I said on the
design because only if you can
dismantle the module after the
lifetime in a very good way then you
have a possibility to make a good
recycling process otherwise you might
just shredder the module as a whole
and try to bring out the different
materials like you do with a lot of
other equipment. But really recycling in
the best way should really go towards
circular economy. That means the best
way would be after the lifetime after
some cleaning process or something out
of a PV module you produce again a
PV module. This would be this would be
the ideal process. I think we are far
away from that but this is what we
should have in mind really to talk about
circular economy in the way that we out
of a old module we produce a new one.
Yeah. in just the good news is that we
made a study in Chile. the
ministry of energy made a research and
the numbers were very
promising because it's mainly
the solar panel is almost full glass so
that's very recyclable then it's
aluminum then it's a bit of plastic
so it's a just with mechanical
dissembling you can I don't
remember the exact number but it was
near 29 90% of recycling. Yeah. Of the
90% of the weight or 90% of the volume
of the Okay. of the weight is very much
defined by the glass. Yeah. And the
other materials are very too expensive
to recover silver or other. Yeah.
Yeah. This this is this is also one
aspect. for example silver if
because when you touch upon that
silver is the most valuable part
typically in a in a PV model and I have
not the exact numbers right now but I
know approximately around 10% of the
world silver demand are now going
already towards the PV sector. Wow. And
for that all the people know that we
really have to take care of replacing
silver by other materials. So there's a
lot of research going on to use copper
which has a very thin layer of silver
on it to replace this and then trying to
get rid of the silver consume. this
is from the point of raw material
very important. On the other hand, this
is negative for the recycling because
the recycling industry, they want to
have a value afterwards. And if you keep
out the silver, then the value for
recycling is not much given anymore
because there's not much silver in and
all the other materials of the so
really you see the more you go into
detail, you see the complexity of
this recycling issue as well. Also
complexity of manufacturing where where
do you see the manufacturing? We
touched upon a bit about in Europe and
maximum part of it happens in China.
What about European competitiveness in
manufacturing and where does it come?
Where does it start? Where does it go?
Now for the moment it's very clear the
the manufacturing of standard PV models
is done in China and some other Asian
countries but mainly dominated by
Chinese companies.
what we see is of course that the
technology is not the same all the
time. It develops very quickly and even
more quickly in the times to come. I
guess that means we will not stay with
the current technology for more than 5
10 years. Then there might become a next
step of technology. M what we have
currently in Europe, in Japan, in
US and so on, we have a lot of research
going on in PV and this of course opens
the door for new technologies to be
produced again outside of China. Even
so, Chinese research and industry is
very well established meanwhile and also
the research in China is really great in
PV. that means we will have a the
best case we might have more competition
again which is per se I think a very
good development for the whole PV
sector and I wouldn't say it negatively
in the way of competition I see
competition in a positive way and also a
lot of partnerships coming up because we
know we have China now really as a huge
industrial partner in all green
technologies and it's not only PV it's
wind it's storage it's hydrogen
electrolyers and so on and so on. We see
China no more the country who replicates
something. So but China is really
leading technology, leading developer
and so I see really the future in
partnership and when you have
recently heard the European
industry PV industry producing the next
generation of solar cells has started
a
collaboration with a Chinese
manufacturer. I think this is the way
where in future we will develop
having partnerships having industrial
research partnerships and working
together and coming up with new
technologies side by side we see a lot
of Chinese companies are producing in
Europe meanwhile for example in the
battery industry I think the four
largest battery producers in Europe are
Chinese companies and of course if
producing is done in Europe of course
research is very close and partnership
has a good chance to be developed if
it's done jointly in Europe and of
course it's it's anyway it's a global
business science and all these
developments are done only on a global
level and I see it I hope it will be
really soon that we have a more even
distribution of manufacturing worldwide
and yeah this is of course can only
be done if there is a political push but
I see at least in some regions of the
world already this political push
because of if we talked before about
security issues. Security in terms of
energy sovereignity in terms of really
being aware that this crucial
technologies of energy they cannot be
given just to one country. Yeah. The
crucial technologies and these
technologies are meanwhile the
renewables. Yeah. The society is relying
on energy. Without them, nothing works.
And we know the key technologies
are meanwhile the renewables more and
more and in the next 5 years even more.
And that's where that's why the
politicians meanwhile also understood
it's a question of security to keep the
technology superendenti in the country
to keep production manufacturing at
least to a certain extent in the country
in the region and that's why I see this
diversification really coming up in the
years to come. Yeah, actually well we
are recording this on 5th of May and
last week it was the international
energy agency forum in London and
they discuss about energy security and
they mentioned politic geopolitical
uncertainty but also extreme weathers
critical materials that we spoke also
about it and supply chain. So it's a
it's a huge topic now this
security and in the same note just to
briefly comment the blackout in
Spain, Portugal and France. And what
do you think about it in terms of
energy security and yeah to there are
some people blaming renewal about it.
What do you think?
I think what's really
important to understand that we are
changing our energy system. Yeah, it's
operated in a different way. Renewables
take over. Renewables have another
characteristics and of course how to
operate electricity networks and how to
integrate proumers now and all that.
This is quite new and of course there
are challenges behind and of course
we have we are used to have a very
reliable a very secure electricity
system and we want to keep that and of
course when you have this transition
from time to time there might happen
because of specific circumstances there
might
occur some challenges and I see this
and we know in the past years that
also the development of PV specific
difficulty inverters. They were facing a
lot of challenges. For example, how to
to disconnect photo from the grid in
times when the main grid is switched
off for example. Yeah, they should not
feed into the grid because then they
could
insure some workers on the grid or
something like that. So this is this all
this problem cames this came up but they
are solved meanwhile and of course from
time to time there might some other
issues might come up in this transition
but that's really about us about
for the for the electrical engineers and
for the scientific community to analyze
it to find solutions and in the best
case to solve the problem because
before the big accident cures and I
think yeah from time to time in this
transition condition something might
happen. but what you have seen also
again in this case of a blackout the
the quality of the photo the vol and the
wind energy that it can reestablish a
grid very quickly like hydropower can do
because of this rotating masses and the
same is now with photo if they have grid
forming inverters really supports the
grid to really forms the grid. I think
this is a step which is also crucial for
the for the future and so this is a lot
of development steps we have to go
on and I think yes that's the job
of the engineers to take care of this
transition and to try to avoid any any
problems which might occur in this
transition process. Yeah that's very
important to highlight this that
power electronics can be even faster to
recover from a blackout. It's it's good
and actually there was also a
question that we were discussing about u
in the in central and eastern Europe
countries like Poland and Hungary they
can actually accelerate way faster but
just integrating PV and storage solution
and not relying on the coal and their
transition could be accelerated.
Yeah. because one of the
concerns that those countries have
that it might destabilize their grids
but as as you mentioned it's it's not
it's not the case.
It's not per se the case of course you
have to go into detail and but
we have so many experiences meanwhile
around and for example in the
international energy agency since 12
years we have a specific task working
on integration of photoable DS into the
into the electricity networks where more
than 40 50 experts all around the world
from 30 countries are coming together
and really exchanging their experience
and learning together and so on. So
really that that's the international
collaboration of scientists and I think
yeah all that is supporting this
transition and yeah I think no no
country should start from scratch. Yeah,
even some countries might lag a little
bit behind in the development of
renewables, but they can really take
benefit of all the knowledge
which is already around and the best
case practices which are around in the
world. And so I see the countries
lagging behind. they will they will
yeah they will quite quickly come to
a similar level of renewables than the
other countries because the costs are
down at least for photoable dikes and
yeah there is there is really now
it's very clear that the transition
towards renewable is the most
reasonable way to change our energy
system and has so many positive impacts
of for every society and do you see
storage and PV going hand in hand for
such countries now. Yeah, of course.
all these countries can also take big
benefit of the storage development of
the last years because it was storage
price went down in this nearly same way
like the PV modules went down 10 years
earlier. So that's really also a big
benefit that this partnership between PV
and storage which makes a huge
sense really helps a lot to integrate
photo into the into the grid for example
in California there's a development
of mainly home stoages in the last five
six seven years and now you see the nice
graphs around where you see during the
day most of solar and in the in the
evening where typically there's the peak
in the power supply they came up
recently in April with 37% of
electricity supplied by the home storage
so really home storage is taken over in
the hours when the sun went down and
really also in the morning some is in
the storage still stored and so you
really storage really having a more
and more important role in this in
this future energy supply which is
more and more
covered by photoable dyke and of course
this is in the summer time and what is
of course the bigger challenge is for
sure the seasonal storage how much is
used or how much is needed for seasonal
storage I think for the summer periods
let's say in Austria from early March to
end of October we will never face really
problems because the storage can
easily solve the battery storage can
easily solve all the problems but for
example in October from November,
December and January. We of course we
might have some issues with long-term
stereos which we I think also it's
for the for the transition phase it
wouldn't be a big problem to use some
gas turbines for a few hours a year or
something like that if it's the most
cost effective solution. but
nevertheless I'm also quite convinced
that the storage solution larger storage
solutions might be more efficient and
more economic in a few years to come
and that's why I think we can
replace the fossil energy in total quite
quickly. Yeah. And just we don't
want to not mention your
your participation in DG demo project
which is a net net project and what was
it about and what were your main
lessons from it? the DJ demo project
was let's say the first project we
started let's say 2001 or 2002 something
like that really to investigate
how to integrate decentralized renewable
into the grid and at that time the grid
operators mainly the distribution grid
operators they were very much hesitating
on small decentralized generators to
feed into their grid because they feel
reliable they feel responsible for
their grid. the grid should be
operated reliable in the way it was used
to be worked in the years before and of
course they couldn't really imagine at
the time that 100 thousand of people
would feed into their grid. Yeah, there
was just the consumers and now it's it's
the other way around. They consume and
produce they send their electricity into
the grid and they couldn't imagine that
this would work out. So you see how big
the transition was and how big the
resistance have been at that time. But
nevertheless we started with this
digonet project really and leading me to
the collaboration which is so crucial.
We started it really in collaboration
with a handful of grid operators. Yeah
we discussed with them we said okay look
this is the future we have to deal with
that. We saw we see your responsibility.
We see your challenges where you have
typically with operation of networks but
now the time has come really to
integrate more and more renewable and
how to do it in the best way and we
really found a lot of nice solutions. We
found some three four demo regions in
Austria different shaped in forbear
in Salsburg and upper Austria and
from that point on we really came
into touch more and more with the
network operators and we really
installed first first demo approach
first deos with a large amount of
photoable dyke and other renewables
and then see how this grid works when
you have such a big distribution of
decentralized generation in your network
and this was the starting point. It was
a project which really paved the way and
still today I think in for there is one
of these DJ demonet projects in
operation that goes as well which is was
worldwide as far as I know the first
smart grid which is in operation. So we
were talking about the
DG demo project and also we want to
know about your experience in
international energy agency how was to
collaborate with international
scientific world.
Yeah. as I pointed out frequently
already I think collaboration is the key
for this transition.
we can learn so much from each other
and to develop something together is
really great. And so I was by the
Austrian ministry I was invited already
in 1994
to join a working group of the
international energy agency. In that
time it was about air heating solution
has nothing to do with photoable D
nothing with electricity. it was just
solar air heating and I really
learned to know the yeah this
international energy collaborations and
I really started from the very
beginning to like this way of
collaborating very much because
sitting together with experts from
all around the world from 25 30 member
countries and develop to develop jointly
anything and to learn from each other in
the way to point out best practice
discuss on recommendations for
decision makers and so on. This was
really very much fascinating from the
very beginning and from 2001 on I was
sent as a Austrian representative to the
photo direct power systems program and
from this time on I really learned to
know the international PV community
and really see what's going on in
different countries different speeds.
Yeah, some countries were much more
advanced, some were very much behind and
at that time Austria, Austria was at
the very beginning and I think we
learned a lot from other countries also
from the strategic point of view. For
example, we learned that it's important
to have a strategic goal. We developed
the first photo road map. I think it was
in 2006 to really show what could happen
if we really stick on this way towards
towards photo what might be the
impact what might be really the result
for Austria and so we engage more and
more in this international collaboration
and yeah I think it's it's crucial to
to work together and to see also and
this is really again this bringing
together specific ific aspects from the
technology side to the social aspects to
the political aspects really to
see the whole picture of this energy
transition of course from the
perspective of the bulk and we were
focusing very much on photo only until
2015 16 because we want also to support
the process of bringing PV to the
market this was in the focus of the PV
discussion from the beginning to let's
say 2012 2015 15 when PV really has
shown that it's cost competitive and
from that moment on we saw that the
prices went down even further. It's even
now on the way to be the cheapest source
of electricity in many regions of the
world in many applications. And now it's
really the moment really to
partner to partner with other sectors
what I've said before with the building
sector, agriculture sector really to try
to find and optimize the applications of
photoable dyke and this again in this
international environment. So we have
recently just established for example a
working group on agriotable dikes
bringing together more than country more
than 30 countries worldwide and even
countries outside the IIA like Brazil
are also participating in this
international working group and we
have one colleagueuh
who really is the Austrian
representative there and brings back all
this information from outside to
Austria and of course in the other way
around we have also some experience in
Austria the meanwhile and we want also
to bring our experience to this
international group and this exchange
and this is of course connected with a
lot of personal relationships meanwhile
so I after this more than 20 years I
really can say and it's let's say on
the personal level one of my best
friends meanwhile are friends I have
learned to know in the IA environment
like one of my best friends is
Australian another good friends is from
France and so on. So reallying this is
really very nice to see how this global
network works and the more you also
have this personal relations established
the more easy is to get in touch when
you want to really know what's going on
in Japan in Australia in Malaysia and so
on and it's very easy to just send an
email to your friend more or less and
really say see what's going on and this
is the relation you have in
this group of course it's necessary to
stay there for longer So if you send
just an expert for one meeting it
doesn't help a lot but if you stay
really for a long time you really can
establish a really very good personal
expert networks and by that really
taking benefit and we try to bring all
this benefit out of the IA working
program towards the Austrian
community mainly by the Austrian PV
technology platform where we have
together the whole Austrian community.
And so we really have this exchange
between the international community and
the Austrian community. And so this
really yeah gives really a good impetus
for Austrian development to bring PV
forward. Cool. And just a small note
that you mentioned that you developed
the road map back in 2006.
How it evolved in time? Was it
addressed? Was it similar to the road
map? what's what actually happened.
yes, it was not so far away. because
I was criticized quite a lot that
already at the time I wrote that
PVE really will have a bright future, a
very bright future and a lot of people
really didn't believe on that and said
you are much more too enthusiastic and
this doesn't make a sense and they want
to reduce the numbers which I wanted to
introduce in this road map. But finally
if you have a look to this road map
from 2006 you will see I was already at
that time talking about 15% of the
electricity from PV. At that time we
were at 0.1 or something like that and
now the reality is even a little
bit faster than than my assumption but
basically we are we are quite in
line. Okay. Amazing. And is it similar u
in adoption you created the
framework for Austria but for like
broader eastern region as well are they
taking any are there similarities
between their road map that is going on
what is hindering their growth yeah the
road maps were developed in some
countries not not too many because it's
just a strategic document really to show
what is the potential of this
technology What needs to be done also on
the political arena on the on the
support schemes in order to bring up
this technology? What has to be taken
into account aside and what of course
is the benefit for the industry and why
we should move towards this development
and of course finally what is needed and
what is crucial is the political
support. Yeah. Because if the at least
in the beginning of this technology it
was needed really to support because it
was by far not competitive. It was much
too expensive compared to the other
energy sources. because nobody cared
at that time about CO2. Nobody cared
about the emissions of fossil energy and
so on. And so photoable d was not
competitive at all like all the other
renewables. Of course, by and by the
political systems have changed a little
bit by introduction of CO2 taxes and
some other regulations and of course
promoting renewables a lot and now of
course by step by step also the industry
has seen a value of this technology and
latest at the point when PV was somehow
competitive then really this was a
big jump forwards because then All
the other people say okay this is now
really a cost benefit for me if I invest
into PV system and it's not only a cost
a benefit for the moment it's also a
let's say a benefit for the future to
really have energy cost which are
calculable. Yes. Because you're not so
much dependent anymore on international
price developments of gas or oil or
something like that. And if you have
let's say 30 40 50% of your electricity
provided from your own system then
you're less dependent then you are
completely dependent on international
markets and so this is also a factor
which more and more was attractive for
the industry to come up with own energy
supply as far as possible by PV now
added much more by PV storage systems
and maybe they have only a contract PPA
or something with wind or something like
then they might be capable of
covering more or less the whole energy
they need from renewables. Yeah, we have
talked also in other interviews about
energy independency like so it's very
related and now with all your experience
in Austria sector what would you like to
be your main contribution to the
PV sector in Austria Europe the world
I have a question to add to it as well
because you spend a lot of time
educating people about PV energy as a
whole as well. What do you think that
students coming along who want to work
in this sector, what what skill job that
are coming, what they should focus on,
what is going to be making them find a
job of the future in this industry.
I think the most important
prerequisite for students in this
field is to be somehow enthusiastic and
really want to move on and spring
forward something. as soon as they
step in the technology and the whole
development
most of them automatically became
fascinated of this technology because
not of the technology PV as such but of
the renewables because wind technology
and all the other technologies
around are also fascinating because it's
really this great transition the
society has in front of us and as soon
as you're really enthusiastic you find a
lot of jobs because it's mainly the
personal motivation which drives you to
be engaged and if you see you make
something which is reasonable you can
make you can move on you can bring up
something and move forward. I think this
is of course really a job which is which
is great and yeah I have worked
a lot of years and days and hours for
the renewable sector but I don't
remember any any hour which was boring
so far because it was really exciting
from the very first moment and I
think I keep feeling the same feeling.
Yeah. And it's nice that that if this
if this can be transferred to
somebody else, it would be of course
very nice that you can see you can also
motivate other people to currently
work on this big big job because there
is still a lot to do. We have we are far
away from reaching our goal. We have
still in Austria about 60% of fossil
energy in the whole energy sector
worldwide even more. So it's it's a huge
future effort which has to be made by
the next generation let's say like that
and yeah I think it's it's a it's a
great job and it's a it's a great thing
to do and what what is now really
different than before is that most of
the people really now believe that this
is the only way we have to do the only
thing the only
way forward is the way towards renewable
was not 20 years ago but I think now
it's quite clear that this is a need for
the society to move on in this direction
and all the alternatives which are
around really are more and more
collapsing more and more. Yeah that's
that's it. I don't know do you have
something else to add? No just we in
the question that Daniel asked
your legacy you have been working for 30
years you still have the passion that we
see which we which we can also light
something up in ourselves but what
legacy you want to leave what about
PV next any closing argument that you
have
any closing argument yeah about your
passion what is still driving you like
are you are you expecting something more
to happen. What's making you still drive
with the passion that you have? Now what
what I like really very much in the last
only few years, three four years, it's
that we were so many years talking
about renewables. We were so many years
making research in renewables, but now
we are really starting to implement
them. And then you see really the people
on the countryside, the people in the
urban areas really all the people they
are really now working in the sector.
They are really using renewables with
all the applications around with all the
the new yeah the new topics which
come up with the intensive use of
renewables. And this is really
fascinating to see a long period of time
of research and theoretical things and
now we put that in into the practice and
this is really great to follow this and
I'm involved currently in three
regional projects. They have all the
targets to have in 30 35 already 100% of
renewable energy and this is really
great to see how the people have the
ambition to realize the target in
time and to see now really PV systems
and other renewable energy
systems, grids and all that coming up
and really seeing how the
energy transition is really put into
practice. This is really fascinating
now.. And what what do you think as
is the next step in the technology wise
like the next big challenge that we
are going to face in the industry
in from production wise or from user
side? What do you mean? I think in user
it will be more user side.
Yeah. for the for the industry.
I think industry
wants to have a clear and good frame
condition for the future for long-term
prospects
and I think if they can rely on energy
which comes from renewable and all
the their customers also are questioning
more and more how do you produce which
what resources what energy I think the
more comes into mind that we have to
move and this is the big step beyond
all that is of course the circular
economy because when we talk about
renewable energy it's just one part of a
circular economy because the big thing
what we have to talk about is to close
the loops yeah we have restricted
resources limited resources and we have
not only in energy but also in the other
all materials we have to try to use that
in the most responsible way to use it
most effectively and after the usage we
have to try to bring that back in the in
the in the circle as much as possible
otherwise we cannot maintain to have
more than 8 billion people on this
planet and this would not work on so
I think yeah really bringing to the
people to the mindset that basically
it's all about the circular economy I
think this is one of the most crucial
points amazing final words I think to
finish the interview secret economy all
also drive us to do this. we are
very grateful for having you here.
as Raul mentioned your passion also
in inspired us to start this this
project and my outgoing thought from the
interview it's the importance of
collaboration as you mentioned and it's
something that we want to address too
with energy bridge to put
together academia industry policy
makers and also innovation. So, thank
you very much, professor. Thank you,
professor. It's been an honor and thank
you for doing what you do and thank you
for coming and giving us this very
insightful interview. Thank you. Thank
you very much for inviting me and
really congratulation what you're doing.
Thank you very much. Thank you and keep
in touch in the community for the next
episodes and see you next time. Ciao.

The Man Behind Austria's 2030 Renewable Target with Hubert Fechner - TEB Podcast S1E3

Collaboration is essential for success

Circular economy is the future

PV technology is evolving

Energy storage is critical

Public perception shapes policy