S1E11

Stability Challenge: AI, Analytics&Maximizing PV Reliability with Gerhard Mütter TEB Podcast - S1E11

with Gerhard Mütter· NR· 1m

TL;DR

AI and analytics can enhance PV reliability and efficiency in energy systems.

Synopsis

Gerhard Mütter discusses the integration of AI and analytics in optimizing photovoltaic (PV) plants, emphasizing the importance of reliable forecasting and data analysis. He highlights the challenges and opportunities in the energy transition, particularly in Central and Eastern Europe, where regulatory frameworks and local engagement are crucial for success.

Key metrics

by the numbers · 8

700 MW
Ukrainian PV capacity
4.5-5%
Optimization improvement
3 GW
Indian PV plants optimized
100 MW
Free market sales optimization
15-5%
Forecast accuracy on clear days
60%
Austrian hydroelectric contribution
11 tons
Weight of 2 MW inverter
8-11%
PV production loss

Topics

5 tags

AI integrationPV optimizationData analyticsRegulatory challengesEnergy forecasting

Stats

Duration: 1h 23m
Words: 12.1k
Questions: 25

Timeline

7 chapters

Introduction of Gerhard Mütter
Gerhard Mütter introduces his background and experience in renewable energy.
Optimization of Ukrainian PV plants
Mütter discusses optimizing 700 MW of PV capacity in Ukraine.
Energy selling strategy in India
Mütter explains how he optimized energy selling strategies for a 350 MW plant.
Forecasting energy production
Mütter highlights the importance of accurate forecasting for energy production.
Austrian renewable energy landscape
Mütter discusses Austria's reliance on hydroelectric power and renewable integration.
Inverter specifications
Mütter details the specifications of inverters used in renewable energy systems.
Combining wind and solar
Mütter discusses the benefits of integrating wind and solar energy systems.

Key insights

4 takeaways

01
AI enhances PV reliability
Integrating AI can significantly improve the reliability and efficiency of photovoltaic systems.
02
Regulatory frameworks matter
Effective regulatory frameworks are essential for facilitating energy transition in Central and Eastern Europe.
03
Local engagement is key
Engaging local communities can mitigate challenges and enhance project acceptance.
04
Data analytics drives optimization
Utilizing data analytics can lead to substantial improvements in energy production forecasting.

Pull quotes

2 quotes

The 700 megawatt got optimized 4 and a half 5% within the first years
Gerhard Mütter
The 2 megawatt inverter have more the 2 megawatt inverter station have a weight of 11 tons
Gerhard Mütter

Transcript1821 cuesClick a timestamp to jump

So today in our episode 3 we have gear
mud who doesn't like to be called a
lecturer or professor because he has
done he has done many others which
includes doing integrating PV plants
in many different part of the world
doing a lot of work in the CE region and
of course he would also CTO CTO for
NR for a long period of time but I
would let him introduce himself and then
we go ahead.
>> Okay.
>>.
>> Then let's start there.
>> Let's start.
>> Okay.
I think I will not tell you my whole
life because then the whole period will
be over. But just give you a short
idea of what it's been originally
and that's done for you. I'm an
automotive engineer. Then I started
technical mathematics was then 25 years
in computer graphics mainly focused
on creating nice pictures of interior
design and create an automatic generated
sceneries on interior design which moved
then to also renewables and since
2005 I'm more working for the renewables
first as a product developer
And then I started with my first
part in Eastern Europe on supporting 700
megawatt
in Ukraine [clears throat] where part
of them is on the island of Ka, part of
them is in the area Odessa to the
Romania border. So this is
>> [snorts]
>> Eastern Europe.
>> Yeah.
>> And the written in
the topic. Yeah. And based on this
there were challenges on having these
plants under control and there I
developed tools for really a lot of
irregularities
out of the out of the monitoring data
and based on this the 700 megawatt
got optimized 4 and a half 5% within the
first years of my career of techn
technical director that I was at that
time. We then thought this idea of
having analytics on based on monitoring
data combined from my mathematical
background with the renewable ones
and created a product out of it. This
product is now part of green power
monitoring software and based on this I
did looking at you as an Indian
>> in your country optimization of
across approximately 3 gawatt of plants
and now counting here only that plants
where I've been so I've been think six
or seven times in the biggest plant of
the world first in the first 100
megawatt plant in Ukraine which is close
to the airport of Cople
on the island of Premier then the first
gigawatt like the biggest plant in the
world in BLA in Rajasthan.
>>.
>> and also the first gigawatt plant
closed in one place which is in Korea
but [snorts]
approximately 3 or 4 hours south
southeast of but in the center of India.
Well, it well.
>> I've been there for several times
and there have been clients like
Soft Bank who was the owner here 350
megawatt of this gig plant
>> and we optimized in this case we
optimized their energy selling
strategy on combining the weather
forecast with the price that they get on
the on because part of them they were
selling on the on the free
[clears throat] market. The part was the
PPA like in India usual.
>> Yeah.
they made a part of saving on the
on the free market 100 meg of this and
I optimized here their accuracy of
their forecast of their energy forecast
bore forecast because the trick is if
you if you sell exactly that energy that
you have announced you get the best
price.
>> Yeah. If you if you produce more you
get just a sheet on the top and if you
produce less you have to buy on your
price expensive additional energy.
Mh. So the trick here was just to
find out would the next day be close to
that what is in India relatively often a
clear sky day because on clear sky day
you can predict a 15 minute exactly on 3
to 5% exactly what you're producing if
you have a cloudy day and then
you have interruptions and you cannot
predict 50 minutes plus minus what
you're really producing [snorts]
>> and so the trick It was there when we
could see it [clears throat] on the
weather forecast that there would be a
clear sky day. We put our announcement
on the top level of that what we
predicted and on shitty days that we
call them. we put our announcement on
the lower one and we reduce based on
this the prices for additional extra
energy by 5%. And was it part of you
being the independent consultant and
going there and consulting the
government or was part of some
organization that you went there? it
was it was during the this India tour
we also were here talking with I
don't know as a four fourdigit
abbreviation of the Indian government
that is that is taking care about the
energy distribution in the country and
here we did two of their plants a 10
megawatt plant and a megawatt plant on
from technical perspective I was only
All of the time I was always focused on
on the technical [clears throat]
solutions. So all the political stuff
that running behind was nice to see some
politicians.
>> Yeah.
>> And to give them instantly to make
technical sense to do something like
this or what is to be expected or to
discuss some on energy profiles
because you have on the one hand the
production profile on the other hand
the profile of the market. So that was
that was kind of nice. Yeah, we did we
did something for this for this Indian
government. I have some very friendly
thoughts about them. They were
trying to do but they are in a safe
position. It's not the hard market
>> centralized way.
We like central
>> central government. We like the
centralized system.
>> Yeah. [clears throat] Well, thank
you, Kan for and first of all, I
mean, what an introduction. So, it takes
so much to get on our podcast.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. That you have to do so much work
to get to fit.
>> Yeah.
It's just a matter of time.
>> It's just a matter of time. I started
this following the renewable
ideas when I was at your age and my
boys are at your age at the moment
>> and they are still in the renewal
project before now.
>> Yeah.
>> What a journey. But G just
looking back it's been incredible
journey but you said that you started
your renewable journey back in 2005.
2005 I switched from from software
to do something that I can grab because
the part there were there were 25 years
of doing more or less theoretical stuff
from programming or coordinating a
software company that I own at this time
and it was quite interesting to not only
to calculate the things and to show them
nice pictures but really that then I did
product management and developed
ring solar thermal units and
also setups for private household
TV small PV units. So combining a small
inverter, putting a set of cables,
taking care that on your specific
rooftop, you [clears throat] have the
correct fixing system, the mounting
systems that you need on every
different tile that you have on your
rooftop.
You have you have different mounting
systems. Yeah.
>> Yeah. But it's very interesting. We
were talking before the camera was on
that your background was in the early
stages of the AI, right? So
>> it was it was in the I programmed I
programmed the first in the in the
80s. I started [clears throat] when
I first studied technical mathematics.
did on the one hand the computer
graphics on the other hand we were
crazy about the algorithms of artificial
intelligence creating the first
neural networks on programming then in
program lang program programming
language yeah okay C is in the
meantime C is still alive
>> real software like I recorded
>> so yeah I did I did some of the
algorithms And there are also a few
families I think you are now in this
field where AI is in the market. you
have on the eye. On the one hand, you
have the algorithms that are simulating
what your brain or trying to simulate
what the brain is doing. That is and
the other one is the interface to that
and the interface is still a tricky
situation.
because on the interface you have
to recognize
what is going on and pattern
recognition and also the modeling of
the real world inside the computer is
still a challenge. but I was also
very amazed on being a part of
that when we did the step from
from the stupid black and white models
that in the first days of
computer science where where you have
this binary situation. Okay, it is yes
or no.
>> And u in the meantime we have 256
256 shade of gray which you can
represent. so the fuzzy logic were
not black and white are the decision
maker which is now used very
intense on the artificial
intelligence
>> and compiling but the result and
I'm I'm here also warning to my students
when is the problem that you have is
it is just compressing if you put
in
>> exactly
>> yeah and that's the problem that
you have if you follow EI where the
database or the background is not
verified by experts of the field where
you use it and that's a different why u
AI or if you take JP it is it is
giving you word is like influencers
are taking which is normally a
compression of stupid things not
everyone but there are there are for
sure excuses on it but we have the
advantage and on the other hand where
artificial intelligence is working quite
well. Take the example on detecting
tumors on X-ray picture because there
all the time every picture that is in
the database and is quantified and
classified. Here is the classifications
is done by an expert
>> and it's not done by anyone who says oh
my py sister was jumping three times
high on that so that must be the
next for the whole world and here
the results are really amazing and I
in my later career when I was already
in the renewables starting also
>> from the from the path being the
scientific committee of PVC
I accompanied
a PhD thesis in Portugal where a girl
had to safely analyze 105 algorithms of
[snorts] available in libraries like
like the like you have at the moment
usually Python libraries.
>> Yeah. math lab is also one of
these areas and she analyzed the
usability.
>> What year we are talking about
>> what's
>> what year was it?
>> That was 200.
>> Okay.
>> Or or even 2020.
>> Okay.
>> So it was not not so long ago. Not so
long ago. and she checked out this
105
on predictive the sura production.
the funny thing is this girl was from
from Madaga where this island is
famous for having a very fine structured
local climate. So you have 500 m from
one location a [clears throat] totally
different climate. this is a small
island in the Atlantic Ocean
>> where the main wind mid direction is
giving you because it is it goes
out to 7 1, 700 1, 800 m
and so the wind on the
Atlantic gives a very fine segmented
local climate. Each valley has different
climate
>> and that was amazing on checking
out the quality of the algorithms.
And there was during the work
we classified it then to five groups on
having neural networks more more than
then on more on random
numbers based
>> okay
>> Monte Carlo methodology and double
checking we classified the test into
five groups and the best result was done
finally the final result of their
PhD
taking a top level algorithm based on
fuzzy logic to decide which family of
these five classes is the current case
the best one
>> and based on this we increased already
the results I think by one or two%
compared to the best to the average fit
of the taking over five algorithms so
this f logic on top of the artificial
intelligence for select the real
algorithms was an amazing result but
also here the input have to be very
clear and the expert who is using that
artificial intelligence
have to be in and should be an expert
and then you get in this field and I
think it is not only renewable energies
you get then nice results
>> nice every field
>> in the in the in the meantime the
second part is Then we are talking now
here about the algorithm t part. The
second part is the is the pattern
recognition.
>> So detect detect the difference and
before we [clears throat] talked
about the difference between cat and
dogs
>> where it is easier to detect this if you
do not have a single slide but you have
a movie out of it because the cat is
moving much more smoother than the dog.
Based on this you can detect
C. You have the characteristics that are
unique and you can then identify clear
and the pattern recognitions you have in
this algorithm is also the same topics
detecting borders change of colors and
based on this you can use them and
classify and compress and data
algorithms that are known already since
1990.
>> Yeah. So in
>> even before Yeah. Yeah. And it must be
mind-blowing to see the evolution of AI
when it started and
where we are now. And in the AI field
that you have seen in the field in
renewable energies, you mentioned before
something in
in operation or maintenance or PV
power plant for example. How do you see
the AI and its role in renov?
>> We have we have the same problems
like you have in AI that means
sheet in sheet out.
>> so you have to clear clearly clearly
segment and pre-ompress the data that
you use for training your AI and you
have a quite big variety on the
monitoring data
to detect this. So if you do not filter
effects side effects out of it, you
get the chaotic result and the result of
any AI that you use on just stupid
monitoring data is let's say limited
>> it is it is limited it is most of the
time it is marketing cake because it is
not there is where is the border between
statistics and AI. Yeah. so a lot of
companies are also talking about
their selecting and detecting fors on
on AI and to be honest I was also
one of them presenting and presenting
things AI supported and but the main
work is knowing what you're
doing and figuring out I think in my
lecture you have seen the simple
things on having morning afternoon
shares which is not necessary to put
into AI but this simple calculation
singiness and get the real sun position
based on this this shadow is
is not a fault this shadow is a is
the daily position of the sun
>> and you can skip it out if you don't
filter it out and you just take the
numbers or you're not aware that you
are in the first row where you do not
have the effect of the shadow because
you are in the first row you can look
poor into the sun. knowing what
you're doing is here is here
very much more interesting. Also, if
you have different setups, you cannot
use the same the same strategy on a
flame power plant. than a power
plant that is following the countryside
a healing area
>> because there every table looks into
another direction and based on this
you have you have different values
and we have different characteristics.
so taking u an AI algorithm that
is trained on standard values on a
flat area at the smooth climate and
you put it then to a smaller power plant
in the elves you get a bunch of force
force. So that you have to filter out
and based on that then it is limited
but combining
all the available technologies that
are there makes sense. For instance,
taking infrared pictures and based on
the infrared pictures, classifying
>> the patterns
pattern classifying the patterns of the
infrared pictures where a very
clear difference between a broken cell
and a broken diet because the broken
diet or a diet is on a non location.
It depends well if the model is oriented
straight or or in landscape or or or
portrait. But you have you have defined
position where the location of
the of the das is. And if this area is
hot, you have and if the area is only
one part hot, that that it is.
And you can clear decide which
kind of fault that that it is that it
is also clear. If [clears throat] a
quarter if a third of a model is
in a different intensity than the
other ones then quite clear
what is the reason. So you can train you
can train on that pattern and then you
can classify
and it helps you also to train
if you have structural problem which is
not very much in nowadays. there
were a period around 2010 when the
market on the PV
>> exploded more or less.
>> Yeah. 2010
>> around 2010 plus minus 2 years 5 years
and there was also the
manufacturing was growing by amount of
of models available on the market but
the quality was not that perfect like it
is now and also if you had to build
bigger plants it was not possible to get
from one manufacturer
10 megawatt
or even more. Yeah. so today I your
order without any problem is 100 but
okay since week you had but
>> had a good manufacturing at that time
and even now right for
>> PD they had they had manufacturer some
friends of mine in the meantime they
do other jobs but there one one or two
manufact
special ones are still glass gas
models are for they have purpose for
building integration
for small frames. This they're still in
Austria something but these big series
>> we do not have the capacities here
>> the this big factories in China and
there will change but the problem was
you have not you have the quality and
sometimes it can happen that
structural problems occur in the in the
power and for that artificial
intelligence is quite interesting. So
your structural problem you have some
patterns that are coming up. You take
draw pages or you take these patterns
from from the from the monitoring data
more or less backtrack to the to the
location where it is or you can follow
up the growth rate of the
phone and based on this you can then
you would be able to coordinate let's
say model replacement or any warranty
cases. In these cases it makes sense
to dig but these are single cases. in
single cases and in the meantime the
quality of the models are
more or less perfect compared to 2010 to
2015 or let's say 2008 to 2015 2007
after 2019 I have not seen any major
quality problems in the big plants that
I've visited or have operated but at
this time there were already plants
operating since 2010. We're at the end
of the lifetime on some parts was
visible.
>> Yeah.
>> We last week we were talking with
Alexander Fisher, your friend.
>> He has done a lot of stuff at his
home making it I would say energy
transition family.
what kind of TV does he install?
It was PV in the roof, the
[clears throat] heat pump, electrical
vehicle and house insulation.
>> I remember
>> and we believe you also have done
something similar in your house like you
would.
>> Yeah.
>> Would you like to share something?
>> There is there is not very much to
share. I have in a nice location. I'm
sorry that you that I have now work
here. So otherwise next time next time
you will come
I live I have the privilege to
live out in the countryside and in a
bit bigger area than usual last year.
and for sure I have I have a few kil
[clears throat]
on TV on my on FL rooftop integrated
and I drive an electric car. Yes.
because I like it. Yeah.
>> Do you have what kind of car do you
have?
>> Don't worry about it. It's a bit ugly,
but don't worry about it.
it's it's a it's a nice electric car
and I tried also hybrid electric car
before electric cars were there and
I like the combination I like the
smooth driving u and for sure the
way have to go into into electric
driving
but it have to be combined with
with that what is available on the
market so that I can tell you the
difference between an European electric
car and that was the initial real
electric car to name Tesla here which
is a nice electric car had a lot of
power but you cannot keep it on the
European roads because the
it is it is made for California
highway and not for our curvy
roads here. So that's that's but
the way of aging it is no noise
it is no it is no pollution or
limited pollution or making the rubber.
Now, how do you feel about like
diesel being still the primary carrier
for a lot of for a lot of vehicle in
Austria still?
I'm I am originally an automotive
engineer and I know the technical
issues inside. it is a philosophical
discussion but from from from a vital
perspective from also from having
clean environment [clears throat] it
makes absolutely sense to switch
but the main the main advantages are
not that I would say it's it's more
on it's the next generation of
comfort it is a and the next
generation of comfort means also less
noise which is important especially
in cities and in
villages not to disturb anyone. by
the cars I think the pollution values of
the of the
small cars are reduced significantly
>> in the [clears throat] last 20 years.
it is it is different on
countries where you coming from where
nobody is checking out what is coming
out of the of the exhaust. Hey, I have
to tell you I have to tell you G that in
Delhi you cannot drive a diesel car
after 10 years and they're making it
tougher to buy car you have to pay more
taxes. So for it would for me it was
very interesting
>> but the interesting are the taxes in
daily for instance they are gas driven
yeah and that there's a lot of the
pollution reduction of daily but this
is a different it's a different world.
Yeah. No but the cars that that we
that we have here
for sure there is there is there is
pollution. We do not have this dance
11 rows in one direction and
no we do we do not have this and I
think the transition should be even
more to public transport. Yeah,
>> we have we have here and Austria is
here a really nice example. I'm really
200 km out of out of me and I'm coming
with the train.
>> Yeah,
>> because it's more comfortable.
>> and it is even faster because the
train is allowed to drive for 20 230.
I'm here in less than 2 hours and
from my office to here to the
university.
>> we love train. We went to Amsterdam by
train last week.
>> Yeah, my train.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay, then. Yeah, I've been also
traveling with Indian railways. So,
>> how did you like it?
>> Okay, let's talk another
[clears throat]
It was an experience. That's Let
That's Let's And I was, as you can
expect, I was in the highest class. It
was an experience.
>> I will not miss it, but I will not do
it. What did the delay the train?
>> The one was one trip was the amazing
distance of close 400 kilometers in
Rajasthan.
>>.
>> From daily out to Rajasthan
there the trip was 10 hours for 400
kilometers. So really nice. that's
what you to do in Austria in two. Okay.
This that's less than the NSR do in 2
hours now.
>> Yeah. [snorts]
So that that was that was amazing. And
the other one was the high speed
coming from from from Bopal up to up
to day from I think in Kia I was there.
[snorts] Yeah. the last the last 200
kilometers and the train was amazing 120
kilometers and everyone
at the high speed but a lot of
people I imagine when I was coming back
from
from the desert I you need you
do not need a bodyguard in India
because the people are all friendly but
I needed a bodyguard to come to my car
to make the wave free to
[clears throat] the car because there
was so many people when the train was
arriving there.
>> Okay. Getting getting our focus back to
Austria after your experience in India.
>> Is that how how do you see the Austrian
landscape like you have been here
for many years and you're from upper
Austria but like the Austrian
landscape for last 30 years. How you
seeing the energy system changing here?
I think the energy system in Austria is
a very lucky one. we have we have
a quite wide range of renewables
starting last 100 years even where we
used the relatively big rivers
to produce our main energy or my main
electricity to be honest.
we have on the other hand the
big where a lot of water is running is
coming down and supporting
I think about more than 60% don't ask me
about the precise number but more than
60% is just water coming down from
the mountains. there's a quite
lucky situation that we are and to fill
up the rest with renewables
[clears throat] on at least on the
electricity sector
independent
is technically possible.
Yeah,
>> that's that's the situation and I'm
working one of my best guide is the
Austrian vill
and they will reach this 100% on
renewable electricity for their trains
quite soon. I'm supporting them
currently for combining big PV plants
with supporting the electricity of
the train and they start now also to
combine wind farms and connect
them directly to the line of the
train
>> with this inverter that you say that is
not 50
>> 16.7 yes we have and it is one phase so
it's a single phase
>> and based on this The inverter is
quite bigger than the normal one.
>> Yeah.
>> Because you have to you have the bigger
coils and you have the bigger
capacitors. because of the high
current you have only one phase.
>> Just an idea.
The 2 megawatt inverter have more the 2
megawatt inverter station have a weight
of 11 tons which is not necessary and
you are below one tone. if you take
the 50 Hz compare if you take the
PKS SMA 1 megab station it is without a
transformer
without transformer the part is below
one tone
>> or around and here we have 11 tons and
no transformers
>> so that's that's that's the situation
but supporting the train directly is
impressive and on the Austrian landscape
Okay. there is there are some
other power plants. U
>> yeah are there any like new development
project that is going on that worth
mentioning?
>> I do not even even the gas power
plants are in the way to used very
limited.
>>. M so we can we can based on this
lucky situation where we are
>> and the same is in Switzerland
>> based in this lucky situation we are
able to do this
neighbor countries do not have this
lucky situation if you take Germany for
instance they have to they have to do a
lot on distribute their big
available wings the northern part of the
country the mountains in the south
are the rest of the mountains, not the
main part like Austria and Switzerland.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. So they have they have nearly no
riverside power but they have they have
no pump storage in the higher mountains
like we have.
>> So what next for Austria in terms of
deparbonization industries right
we still need to address in
Austria the industry. Yeah, but the
industry is located
on few locations and especially
the main the steel industry in
in leads they have developed extremely
I remember when I was grown up in the
70s last century u and you and you went
to lead
I've never seen it before I was an alien
>>
>> competitive
>> that but it was in the 70s and
you we had a lot of death on
on the effects of the pollution and
then they reduced the sulfur
in the pollution by the
regulations and the industry so the air
is clean in Austria in the meantime.
I know a friend of mine who is
responsible for the historical building
here in Indiana in Vienna.
>>.
>> And this nice green
rooftops built from copper, but you need
them that they get green. You have this
copper and this this orange
>> orange black color at the initial
state and then you need the sulfur
from the air that it getting green and
they have problems that the historical
buildings when they change the rooftops
get not does not get this nice green
because there is no sulfur anymore in
the air. So they remain with the copper
natural
>> they yeah maximum it goes to black from
any other pollution rest but it get it
doesn't get green anymore.
>> Wow.
>> They are they are taking they are taking
the green copper from from parts
that are not visible and put it out
on the visible and reuse it on
the visible part because [clears throat]
the air is so clean in the meantime.
That's the advantage of using the
renewals and not
>> blowing anything out. But the industrial
the industrial
pollution is simpler to be to get
under control. You can you get no permit
to start anything before you do not
fulfill the strong regulations that we
have here. So here we are based on this
we are we are very lucky lucky and
coming back to India where you have
the problem that most of the pollution
is coming from small local fires
where where a lot of people
[clears throat] are burning anything
that is not allowed to be burned but you
will never put into a controlled
power plant like we have here in Vienna
for instance the
>> yeah they you
>> but there this is a controlled situation
the pollution is really limited to that
what the content of the material that
you burn [clears throat] usually
provides.
>> But the way should go into having all
all that you need on energy in a
controlled way so that you have no no
pollution coming out from that the
households are cleaning here. Austria is
in a lucky situation also.
>> the way to heat pump is just the
next logical one. But we do send
since
I've done it on also renewable is
is wood firing if you do it controlled
and controlled wood firing for
households is also a possibility. I do
not I did even not follow this idea.
I was originally by myself.
I'm having now my second heat pump. I
already did 1993
he pump to support my house.
>> Wow.
>> Because I have and it worked 30 years
without any problems and the problem was
a buffer at the end of the lifetime but
not the heat pump itself.
>> I changed it last year. Yeah.
>> And they have and the quality is now
labelizing the electric five and my
type of heat. Were you able to get the
individual heat pump back then? Like
>> Yeah. Yeah. That was legal on the
market.
>> Okay. [clears throat]
>> That was no problem.
>> Yeah,
>> that was no problem.
>> And because I think it now it's
getting back in that people want
individual heat pumps and that heat pump
suppliers have become and was it a
boiler?
>> Yeah, that the boiler is afterwards. So
you heat up with the heat pump
>> the water put it in the boiler and the
boiler the boiler is your buffer
>> and on the on the energy heat transition
coming back to that the buffer is
now the battery
>> should be the battery because you
produce the cleanest energy that you
can produce electricity for sure you
take a support that is not writing your
bill so no one is sending you a bill
from oil or gas
or even for wood firing. Yeah. So,
you are independent from that. So,
you can you have stable situation of
your energy input which is wind, which
is [clears throat] water, which is
direct sun usage. And you buffer it.
>>.
>> And you deliver it when the client
requires it. The startup was for sure
setting up the market, growing up the
market by setting up subsidies which
Germany was really famous
>> and the market all you can eat
have to digest everything and that's the
situation where we are now in this
energy transition where we have now
balance the energy and provide it to the
client when he requires it.
>> Yeah. So
you are an energy expert you were
all professor but you are a consultant
energy expert in the field. So I want to
ask you this solution that you mentioned
before we started the when you can
combine different technologies
in order to address to optimize the
infrastructure usage
>> and then to storage and to supply the
energy when it's needed to tackle
this challenge which is the D car which
It's everywhere. So
>> yeah. Okay.
>> What is this?
>> Let's let's talk about it. we have we
have I think we have it all over all
over Europe and some countries are more
developed, some countries are more
lucky. The main pattern is the
same. We have a transition to renewable
energies where we have energy available
when the wind is blowing and we have
energy available on the renewables when
the sun is shining which is a problem
in the night
[snorts]
>> on the one yeah wind is also going in
the night. So u based on this is quite
quite fine. the next one is the
energy is leading to an to a
different time. and the other problem
is that you have to bring the energy to
the client. So bringing the energy to
require a grid [clears throat]
and the grid is to be dimensioned on
when the most energy is available. it
has to support the whole power and
here is
a big gap in between thinking about
power and energy. power is that what
you get on let's say in a strong strike
>> instantly
>> in but you but if you take less power
but over a longer time you transport the
same energy.
>>.
>> So the trick is to have the energy
more or less distributed or provided
when the client and the client can
also be on the power but the grid.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. when the when the client
require this
>> all you have have to do and on the
solar server it is quite easy is to
take the energy when you have it. Okay,
the sun is shining it's heating up your
water and you take the energy to your
personal consumption when you need it.
So when do you need your hot water? When
you want to shower there are two types
of showering one in the morning the
other in the afternoon. So, or when when
you're when you're cooking or
cleaning your your dishes, then you
need your your hot water or you take
your water for heating up the room or
reducing the temperature a bit, mixing
it up into the frozen.
>>.
>> U that's so on that renewable system,
you can do everything local. You take
the water as a buffer, you have 2, 000 m
storage on a private house. You have a
few square meter on your on your rooftop
on a certain server collector. you
have some copper lime sometimes and this
the system is working independently
without any any pollution. it's
consuming a few
>> [snorts]
>> a small part of electricity for a for
the pumps that's you cannot do this on
on you can do this but it is quite
interesting to have it on areas
Denmark did a lot of that they have
they have distributed heating system on
on taking care about renewables this is
a good example but the world is a
bit different the whole world and the
energy that we can use in most cases and
the biggest energy is for sure
electricity. So the key is here
taking the patterns that have been
successful for many years for
even decor
situation that the battery prices are
going down. They are going they are at
at an exact level. that also from the
economical perspective it gets
attractive and we have a lot of
connections to the grid [clears throat]
from PV plants from wind farms
where this is only partially needed. So
one of the things is why not
combining two different things that have
different production profiles and
using it on the same connection point.
I've appreciated in my in my lesson just
an example here of Austria. we
have the south of Fienna a lot of
successful
wind [clears throat] where this wind has
a profile that it is running here. It is
blowing more in winter. it is blowing
more in the early morning and late
afternoon. And
if you take the solar impact, the
solar impact is more at high noon when
the wind is more or less quiet. It is
more in the summer season than in the
winter season. when the wind is
silent. So why not connect these two
together? Because on the one hand they
were the produc of the winter. I need my
1 megab or whatever the on
connection. on the other hand
>> on the other hand or 8 megawatt or
whatever. Yeah. And on the other hand
the PV plant I need my grid connect for
1 megawatt because 2 hours a day I
have concern and I can produce really 1
MHz. Yeah. And nobody thinking about the
borders when the wind is not blocked
full power part but only partial then
the wind connection is maybe blocked for
70% 40% even 60%. U and why not fill
up at this time when the sun is usually
shining [clears throat] adding
additional power on the same connection
point
>> the same connection point
>> on the same connection point and oh man
I'm I'm losing a lot of this of my
energy and it is so expensive the
real number is here in this area we
did it on simulating three or four
years exactly on 5 minute resolution and
the result is you are between 8 and 11%
of the PV production which is which is
half of the wind production because wind
is running during the night also.
>> and it is delivering 2, 000
kilowatt hours per kilowatt power
connected. Yeah. Roughly. And the V8
[clears throat] is, 1, 200 but on filling
up but you have 8, 000 hours in here.
Hey, sorry. So even connecting the same
dimension of PB on a on a feeding point
of
defined [snorts] of a defined level in
this case it was 14 megawatt but I
did it also with 100 megawatt scenario
it's it's the same proportion it's the
same and the amazing part is if you
have if you add a battery to
bridge
4 or 8 hours you go down to a loss that
is below 1% of the whole energy
production. So adding a battery of 8
hours to a setup using the full power
of the wind farm and using the same size
or even double the size on PV adding it
on the same feeding point. You do not
have to add anything on the grid but you
have a five times higher
>> energy
not five times but three times three
times higher energy transition on the
same point not not one screw additional
necessary on wind
>> yeah wind solar battery
makes up to 60 67 70% usual usage of
the of the feeding point where wind is
up to 20 25%.
And solar is even is even 30 50%.
So, 000, 000
full load hours.
>>.
>> Of 8, 800
800 hours a year. you blow
over the line from from so this is
this is a
an attractive approach. and the
next one is put such an environment
close to a connection point. We have for
instance a gas power plant. We have gas
power plants with 30 with a few hundred
megawatt where wind area is around
and the and the lines to this connection
point are not you don't have to change
too much on the grid. So this is a this
is a possibility
to edit and coming back to your
initial questions would it would it
be interesting for Eastern Europe and
here it's clear for sure this is the
solution to provide
developing countries which are not at
that high energy level like we are we
have to fill up and keep it alive
>> here here in Austria more or less and
the energy growth rate is not
that
>> high
>> not that high like you have in emerging
countries where economy
>> can take any example of a country like
where it could be applicable.
>> take take Romania, Bulgaria for
instance, they have their their [snorts]
I think they are the classical ones for
for Eastern Europe. They are countries
with a lot of sun. taking Romania
from the Black Sea there is an
attractive wind profile. They have they
have really attractive wind but they
have good read.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. So having here some kind of
strategic
situation and here coming back to
India where I put the 400 K line KV
line from big cities to the desert
putting their gigaw
of PV and supporting there the growth
the energy ha that the big cities
have and support the big cities to
support at least
during the day and you have also
collected the energy growth is
then also to support your air
conditioning systems which is a nice
profile running parallel to the sun.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. but there is a limited there
is limited additional infrastructure
required
to pass this challenge and that
that is interesting for sure for
Romania Bulgaria where they have some
areas with big cities if you take
Romania
>> they won't have to invent it on the
on trade modernization or create
infrastructure because it can you can
already feed it into the existing the
existing is I'm I'm not aware about the
details there. I think Alex and is
here much better. But from from the
basics.
>> Yeah.
>> From from the basics maybe there are
there is there is you can discuss about
requirements but from the basics
putting [snorts]
strong lines to the to the areas of
industry. Putting strong lines to the
cities and go out on the countryside
and you have and they have enough
countryside. and put heavy PV and
and wind farms and put anywhere local to
the to the feeding point that you do not
over overrun
the long lines. put put
batteries on the on the entrance of
the of the line. make a big
transportation to the areas where the
energy is required and put also
additional batteries close to the client
to fulfill their their their profiles.
and then you get rid of the problems
where especially Germany is crying
about this because they have PV on a lot
of private households
>> and during during the noon hours
PV is producing more than Germany is
requiring
>> so they have negative prices. Yeah. So
they the market price on is
then negative. and you have You
didn't have to pay to deliver your
energy, which is a problem on the
power bus. Yeah.
>> But it's good for storage.
>> It's good for storage. It's it's
extremely for storage because
on storage you can exactly compensate
this this problem because you take the
energy.
>>.
>> when the sun is shining, put it into
the storage and keep it there until the
market is requiring it.
>> Yes.
>> And based on this, you can you can
compensate. I'm not a friend of this
battery only fence where we're just
dealing with it's called the duck
curve where it looks like a duck up and
down. Yeah. where the price is down
when the sun is shining and the price is
up in the morning and afternoon hours
when everyone is at home
and a lot of electricity is required in
the private household. And there are
some bumps in some areas when the
industry is retiring but the industry
is a different chapter and can be
handled locally or this special
elate solutions but or if you take it
all over the country you have to take
care about this and this is quite
interesting to take here the battery
and I don't like the guys who who just
say, "Okay, we have the dark curve. We
have this low prices
in the
>> [clears throat]
>> in the early morning when the
riverside power plants, gas power
plants, cold fire power plants are
running because you can stop them and
run them and also the nuclear power
plants you cannot run and stop them
like you want." So the price they
are fitting in and the price is going
down. Then there's D coming down during
a sunny day especially on weekends
when the industry is not consuming the
price is going to negative then they are
buying the negative price the at cheap
times and selling it. it helps for
sure it helps for sure. it is it is
money making
but I think it is a too narrow engine
the because after sometimes when a lot
of people are recognizing this
everyone wants to play this game and
then you have got this benefit because
the gap is still not not enough. You
have you do not have to forget you need
also some fees for getting
transportation over over the grid and
between selling and buying you have
still a grid fee and if the gap between
maximum and minimum price is less than
the grid fee then you can smash your
battery because you don't make money
with it. So this is this is a temporary
aspect where you get nowadays when the
dark curve is extremely the dark curve
is b at the moment as TV and wind are
still growing is the dark curve
expanding at the moment.
>> Yeah. No, it's a canyon canyon curve.
It's not dark.
>> It's not like a canyon.
>> It's a canyon curve. Okay, that's nice.
[clears throat] I will I will remember
this in my next lecture
to Kenya curve.
at the moment at the moment but it is
visible it is v visible that within the
next 5 10 years whatever this
curve gets flattened and banned
>> u if you have a poor battery use
>> you can smash it because you
cannot by only using this gap of the
price it is not enough but by using it
or having a having it as a storage to be
prepared when you when you use it
it makes absolutely sense.
[clears throat] There are also ideas on
putting on putting the
batteries [snorts] of electricity of
of electric cars as a public buffer.
But this is from the regulatory from the
regulatory side it is really really
tricky because you want to drive a car
when you want to drive but when
electricity is not required [snorts] and
yeah
>> just talking about you
mentioned Romania and Bulgaria. So just
getting back to the whole CE region and
what do you think like the other
challenges that you see in their
energy transition?
>> I think I think the
there is a development but it is
still a challenge is the regulatory side
that I remember the first days when I
was working for Romanian projects.
it was extremely problem on the
corruption to get the permits.
>>.
>> There to get to get permits it was
that is getting significantly better in
the last years. So they are successful
working against corruption but I
remember 2008 2010
setting up for the stupid 20 megawatt
which is nothing
that a 20 megawatt plant in the
area of tisha
we have to come with we should have come
with cash money to get it permit.
Yeah. and we escalated it and this
guy was for sure fired but we did not
get the permit anyhow because on the
next level they didn't want that
anyone was getting fired.
>> that was that was a problem. it
is it is getting better. the regulatory
side is for sure
a problem then the development of the of
the grid is not fast enough.
>> Yeah.
>> but especially on compensating
the extension of the grid which is quite
necessary but it is not necessary only.
So this can be compensated by having
and then here the regulatory is the
problem that it takes
it doesn't recognize fast enough that
the feeding point is the point of
interest and not the production. So if
you have if you have a main farm and you
put up a PV and you say I use the same
filling point then they make it still
from the regulatory side not from they
make it still at two different point and
get the permit also it's technically
possible so here but I think this
should be possible to talk with the
regulatory side to understand that the
energy behind the meter should be
provided by whatever you have And even
if you extend it to hydrogen, if it
is a big if it's a big plant, you can
also extend it and produce hydrogen
there and use the hydrogen where you
need where you need for instance
higher temperature or where you need
where you need gas for industry purpose
on production. Yeah, there you can
there you can extend this model and I'm
talking here about industrial dimension
not about private household because
private household is nice but and it
is also that you can talk if you with
your neighbor about how many things
you have here
advantage and everything localized
but on industrial dimension you
should go
taking peak units combine it behind
the meter and distribute it like the
client and the client can be integrated
requires it. Yeah.
>> beforehanded this interview we were
talking to you and we were discussing
leafrogging for developing markets. what
what kind of leafrogging that you see in
the Eastern Europe because they don't
need to do everything that maybe
Scandinavia has done or Netherlands has
done. What where do you see them doing
leaprogging in and a new transition?
I think there is no need on
these countries to set up a lot of
gas power plants for grid
[clears throat] balancing.
>>.
that that step which was done with
Austria
was done can be compensated
by renewable power plants if they
are really set up on having really
enough battery having
[clears throat] reliable wind direction.
I'm talking here about units above
100 megab.
>>. [clears throat]
>> Yeah. But one
500 megawatt connections setting up such
things can be done using
renewables 100%.
and having it also from from the
public perspective also economical
with [snorts] no
no fuel costs.
You have you have no no primary no cost
of primary energy..
>> You have only the infrastructure and
the capex and the operational part
where the operational part is
let's say it is for sure challenging in
in these countries to have
enough electricity that you can educate
them on the local requirements. You can
people people are willing to learn on
on the local requirements. so if you
have if you have ski people who are able
to transfer
the knowledge how to operate the PV
plant
>> it is not a problem way is different
it's a different one but wind which
which is higher speed but with less
services
then from from then on with less
services than on PE
And there is there are not so many
the possibilities and then then on PV pl
you fight with the big numbers of
equipment that you have where you should
take care about that the big number of
equipment is stimuli and life at the
high level. Yeah. So repairing an
inverter or replacing an inverter
should be possible by your local team or
by a team that is close to your company
and not to ask someone in Sweden or
another in Germany to jump and to
repair it which is on a link to a
different u different high quality
label. They have single spots where it
is required to have high quality
services.
on Pine you have amount a huge
amount of models you have huge amount of
cables and a lot of possibilities that
someone locally breaks down but doesn't
disturb the power
>> also just
>> just discussing a bit about the
technical knowhow in these countries how
how how do you think how prepared are
they for the challenges that are
coming their way
>> I think I'm on
on the big challenges meaning
setting up the grid there is
enough experience in all Europe and
there are some specialized companies who
are doing it.
>>.
>> and they and they can expand and
transfer their knowledge and then sing
projects and when the projects are done
there will be there will be no
bigger problems. winter as I already
said it's it's usual that the
manufacturer is setting up a service
team and by growing of the manufacturer
the service team is growing in parallel
so this the individual service
turbines is managed by the
structure of the market itself
>> u on PV on PV there is there is
some challenge because you need some
people there but this can also be
handled on having local electrician
u and educating and training people on
the local services that are necessary.
Not everyone in the PV plant have to be
fully educated PhD on electro
technical. so you can you can train
you can tell them which people
which parts of the are let's say
dangerous and the dangerous zones means
the switch gears and the
big inverters on if you have big
inverters can be handled by experts
and the rest can be done by people that
you can really get from the local area.
They're creating sound jobs. Not not
very much to be honest. Yeah. we are
talking here about 10 15 people on
the 50 megawatt plant. Yeah.
>> That that makes sense that you that
you support them. You have to take care
about about grass cutting. If you
have problems you have to take care
about cleaning the models and some
countries more, some countries less.
>> Yeah.
you have to take care that all the
wear out can be handled by
cycling. You have to do some some
checks. These are the jobs that are
necessary but you can't the service
aspect is quite low and not so
much challenging. So I would say that
the transition
is manageable is manageable on
the on the grid operator side. I think
the growth rate on distributing
the people are they have enough
people sent out to international
universities so that the education
for these experts that you need for
training staff and so on.
is giving companies that are doing
energy trainings will grow with their
local teams. There is a lot of eco
company jobs that are necessary on
on the legal side for instance. The
legal side is quite tricky there. It
needs much more than and all the
managing side for
>> was there any more challenges apart from
corruption in some part that you failed
obtaining permits?
>> Yeah. Okay. Getting getting the permits
is it is it crucial? Well
then the normal technical
issues that you have that you have
no clear profile about what is under
the ground
>> so that the ground is not working and
you have to add concrete on locations
where you didn't expect that that the
ramic was not working that it did not
have smooth information about what is
what is below the ground that were for
sure challenges on erecting
getting
yeah some on some areas problems with
others from the local people.
>>.
>> But that is also in the meantime managed
by if you make communication to the to
the people around
it is working. There is a nice
example but it is from India where we
where we had broken models and save
and distortions from from
people of the village around and the
original owner was blowing up the
security stuff which is creating jobs
and the real solution was just giving
the people from the village around jobs
on taking care of cleaning the models
which was a problem in this location and
as soon as the people of the village
around had jobs in the plants to clean
the models at the lower price than
the security
>> just taking care about
>> for the community
>> but the Yeah. But the single
job is cheaper than than a security
guy. Yeah.. [snorts]
>>
then the security was no longer
necessary because the people said okay
my auntie and my and my cousin are
working there and they took care from
the village that no one is getting into
the power plant and destroying anything
and based on this this is
communicate with the with the area where
we are then this problems of the
local people you can handle. But if
you if you just I'm the big money
spender and I put two millions models in
the desert and not taking care about
who is around if you integrate
[clears throat] them you can you can
handle them but that was the 12
challenges. also I remember in
Romania this is no longer an issue. They
the people are used
>> they're used to it.
>> They are used to that. They are they
they know it. Safet is for sure a
problem when when you
have anything that looks like it is
expensive
and can be can be used on
so as long as you as you do not have
fans around. but in the meantime the
motors prices are so low that even
stealing models doesn't and during
and the safe of cables is only
interesting when the cables are really
available
during the construction days. If
you have anything expensive copper cable
under the ground already safeties is
a
big effort. Yeah. You also have
considerable experience in Hungary,
right? Or
>> in Hav I is one of the countries I'm
missing. Czech Republic, Slovakia.
>> but do you think like the
countries you can put them in one
bucket?
>> No. No. Every country, every country
here is different. Jake is
for instance from all the all all the
Eastern European countries. the most
developed
there you have you have for sure
you have to fight with the
bureaucratism..
>> but on the other end there is also
a growing lobby who is who is
taking care that renewable energies
have have an position on the
political decisions and they are
considered but based on the
development of these countries for
instance in the Czech Republic you have
a lot of small power plants instituted
all over the country with a lot of mixed
up stuff. Yeah.
>> So [clears throat] having here a bigger
portfolio is challenging as you have
a lot of small plants distributed
all over the country where this this
effects that I told before putting
battery on it and deliver it
and use it like a big power plant
doesn't work that smooth.
>> Yeah. but they on the other hand very
very well developed. you have a lot of
of good educated people and have
not the problem to find people to
service you. but on the other hand
you have then to manage it very
effective because the prices of the
main power is based on the better
education higher Slovakia
is closed around is very
distributed closed around Bratislava
similar developed like like Czech
Republic if you go on the border port
Ukraine you are closer to the country
that you
working with the white countryside
with not very much population, not
very much infrastructure.
>> Hungary, sorry I cannot I have no
personal experiences also not all the
former Ukrainian countries and Romanian,
Bulgaria
are similar but different in
details. These are big countries. They
have the good sun. They have some
local centers among around the big
cities. and the rest is big
countryside which you can use for
producing the energy.
>> so taking care about this
structure it is manageable.
on the end you have also the
legislation at least centralized
compared to central Europe for sure a
bit chaotic but they [clears throat] are
on a way that is getting better and it's
getting clearer and they see their
chance and that makes it quite
interesting.
>> Yeah. sorry the time of flight
we know that we have your all businesses
today so maybe we can continue with
the final thoughts or how we in the
future. Wow. Yeah.
>> I'm surprised, but
>> yeah, we just we just want to ask you a
couple of final questions. You want to
go ahead? from my side I would like
to know as a tech technical expert how
do you see the future and the developing
of the renewal energy technologies in
the next years and
the role of the innovation in this
field. I think they the role of
innovation is here the in the
integration of already existing
u innovations in other fields and the
trick on the renewables is thinking out
of the local box of the experts I'm
fighting at PBC always PB guys who
think they are the most famous in the
world which is
>> clear they are experts in their field
and they are for sure on their field the
most famous but the most famous thing is
to produce u electricity for everything
for everyone and so you have to think
about the border.
thinking about the border combining
things that are existing like I told you
wind combining wind with battery and
with PV and battery and even on
the bigger ones adding the hydrogen
as a as as combined centers but the
same is also on technology
on the development. So u using
artificial intelligence by all the
criticism that I brought out from the
technical perspective but using it
where it makes sense on pattern
recognition to detect for the
analysis it makes absolutely sense on
analyzing the big data that you have
a PV plant have a few million a real PV
plantion models in a in a few hundred
thousand of strings finding out which
one is working should
have to be optimized in a in a big one
and here selecting and filtering
out what is a fault what is a what is a
cloud. Yeah.
>> so that you do send out on every
cloud technician to measure if a motor
is broken on a fuel and that but using
these technologies that are available
making it simpler to be handled.
also for forecast AI is
at least an indicator if you it's an
indicator it's not it's it's not the
final tool yet
>> but it is an indicator taking care about
more precise forecast is a wide
field on combining thinking out
of the box and using the things
that are already available on the market
and combining would be the key in
the next time and using it on
industrial dimension.
>> Okay.
>> And finally G what do you think about
the energy bridge and our initiative to
understand the central and eastern
European energy system better? I'm I'm
really amazed about that what you're
doing here u because that could
get this especially the knowledge
that is not there. The knowledge is
there on industrial institution like
we have here on the university u on
international institutions like we
have here on the University of Vienna
in our master. We have people all all
over the world that are contributing and
not only sharing their experience but
also sharing the experience from you
in Chile to you in India and talking
in Vienna
that's that's necessary and
I think especially on this transition
taking taking out putting expert
together on the stakeholder of the
executing part is interesting. Don't
forget the lawyers and discuss with them
from the technical perspective to
simplify the laws because this is one of
the challenges that we have inside our
technical problems.
>> We already have a lawyer in our
pipeline to discuss next.
>> Yeah. Because because they have they
have to take care that the that the
rules are simplified but user energy
Yeah. So yes, just to highlight that you
made the same master program that we are
finishing and you were classmate with
with Alexander Fisher.
>> So we are very happy to having you here.
It has been a pleasure and I don't
know I think that we were lack of time
so maybe we can repeat it in the future
>> to discuss other interesting topics
and
I think that that's all for today.
>> Yeah. And we will be meeting you in May
in our conference
>> for sure.
>> Thank you very much.
>> Thank you all and follow us. Don't
forget to subscribe the channel and
join us to keep learning about the
energy transition in central and eastern
Europe.

Stability Challenge: AI, Analytics&Maximizing PV Reliability with Gerhard Mütter TEB Podcast - S1E11

AI enhances PV reliability

Regulatory frameworks matter

Local engagement is key

Data analytics drives optimization