S2E06

The Geothermal Renaissance in CEE | Rewiring Europe's Heat Future & Energy Security| TEB S2E6

with Clara Maria Haba, Gregor Goetzl· Austrian Association for District Heating and Cooling, Austrian Association for Geothermal, EVN· 50m

TL;DR

Austria's geothermal sector faces a renaissance, driven by decarbonization goals, but requires policy reform, risk mitigation, and drilling cost reduction.

Key metrics

by the numbers · 8

1979
First Austrian geothermal plant
7-8 years
Deep geothermal project lead time
20-25%
Austrian population geothermal potential
30-40 MW
Future standard plant capacity
400 projects
Germany's geothermal investment goal
2%
Current Austrian heating coverage
2040
Austria carbon neutrality goal
2030
District heating decarbonization target

Topics

8 tags

Geothermal heatingDistrict heatingPolicy frameworkDrilling costsRisk mitigationClosed-loop systemsWorkforce developmentEnergy independence

Stats

Duration: 50m
Words: 7.6k
Questions: 36

Timeline

15 chapters

Episode Introduction
The hosts introduce the topic of geothermal energy in Central and Eastern Europe and welcome guests Clara Maria Haba and Gregor Goetzl, along with co-host Kaiba Aaron.
Clara Haba's Background
Clara introduces herself as head of the Austrian Association for District Heating and Cooling and the Austrian Association for Geothermal, detailing her career path from spatial planning to energy project development at Verbund.
Gregor Goetzl's Background
Gregor introduces himself, explaining his role at EVN and his geophysics background. He details his 18 years in geothermal research and his involvement in founding the Austrian geothermal association in 2019.
Geothermal's Role in Decarbonization
Clara and Gregor discuss how new regulations, like the Renewable Heating Act, are forcing the district heating sector to decarbonize by 2030, making deep geothermal a key solution, especially in urban areas.
History and Renaissance of Geothermal in Austria
Gregor explains Austria's long geothermal tradition, starting with the first plant in 1979 due to the oil crisis, a boom in the early 2000s linked to spa use, and its current 'renaissance' moving into large urban areas.
Geothermal Potential in Austria
Gregor outlines Austria's geothermal potential, primarily in basin areas like the Vienna Basin and Molasse Basin, estimating that 20-25% of the Austrian population could be supplied by district heating.
Policy and Permitting Challenges
Clara and Gregor highlight the need for modernized legal frameworks (water and mineral laws) that currently treat geothermal as a common good rather than an energy resource, leading to 7-8 year project lead times.
Drilling Technology and Cost Barriers
Gregor discusses how drilling technology, dominated by expensive oil and gas methods, needs to become more cost-efficient for geothermal. The lack of competitive service providers in Europe is a significant issue.
Risk Mitigation and Funding Needs
The speakers emphasize the need for incentives and risk mitigation, such as exploration funding programs, to encourage investment in geothermal, given the high upfront costs and the risk of 'dry holes'.
Future Technologies: Closed-Loop Systems
Gregor explains the concept of closed-loop geothermal systems, which extract heat directly from rock without relying on natural thermal water, but notes they are not yet market-ready due to high drilling costs.
European Geothermal Strategy
Clara and Gregor discuss efforts at the EU level, including resolutions from the Hungarian commission and parliament, to push for a comprehensive European geothermal strategy, similar to the existing solar strategy.
Innovation Gaps: Data and Drilling
Gregor identifies cheaper drilling and better subsurface data as the biggest innovation gaps. He advocates for government support in creating new data and making historical data accessible to reduce exploration risks.
Workforce Shortage and Education
The discussion turns to the shortage of skilled professionals in geothermal, noting that Austria lacks dedicated academic programs. Gregor suggests combining skills like drilling, energy planning, and heat pump installation into new study programs.
Investment Priorities for Geothermal Acceleration
Asked about investing 100 million Euros, Gregor would prioritize a risk insurance scheme and an exploration fund, including research drillings. Clara adds the need for subsidies for district heating network infrastructure (pipes).
Austria's Carbon Neutrality Goals
The speakers confirm that Austria's 2040 carbon neutrality goal (ahead of the EU's 2050) and the national heating act are strong drivers for the geothermal industry, especially for front-runners like Vienna.

Key insights

5 takeaways

01
Permitting Delays Hinder Geothermal Rollout
Deep geothermal projects in Austria average 7-8 years from planning to operation, a timeline too long for timely decarbonization targets. Streamlining legal frameworks and authority procedures is crucial.
02
Drilling Costs Remain a Major Barrier
Geothermal drilling, heavily influenced by expensive oil and gas technology, needs significant cost reduction and commercialization. The lack of competitive service providers in Europe exacerbates this issue.
03
Dry Hole Risk Deters Geothermal Investment
Unlike other renewables, geothermal projects require substantial upfront investment with the risk of finding no usable resource. Public-private risk mitigation schemes and exploration funds are essential to attract capital.
04
Austria Lags in Geothermal Policy
While countries like Germany, Hungary, and the Netherlands have modernized geothermal legal frameworks, Austria's outdated water and mineral laws treat geothermal like a backyard well, not an energy resource.
05
Workforce Shortage Threatens Expansion
Austria lacks dedicated geothermal academic programs, leading to a shortage of skilled professionals in geology, geophysics, reservoir engineering, drilling, and heat pump installation, critical for future growth.

Pull quotes

5 quotes

Exactly it's a deja vu right now yeah but it there were efforts in the 70s after the op crisis to introduce geotherma but at this time it was too too early some first district heating developed in Syria at this time
Gregor Goetzl
Deep chief projects from the first scratch to the first submission to the authority to the start of operation and takes in average seven to eight years.
Gregor Goetzl
The heat source is the rock, the solid rock in between.
Gregor Goetzl
The big benefit from a strategic point of view it's it's it's a domestic energy source. You don't need to import it.
Gregor Goetzl
So drilling m must get cheaper. That's the biggest gap.
Gregor Goetzl

Transcript1439 cuesClick a timestamp to jump

Welcome to a new episode in here in the
Neni Bridge. Today we're going to
address the geothermal
association with Clara.
And also a expert with Gregor and you
Gregor.
And today we have we have a special
co-host. We have
Saiva Einarsson from Iceland and you are
you have a nice startup here in Austria
and it's super interesting because it's
a
Brexdrill. It's to make drills cheaper
for short distances. So it's great to
have you here. Thank you as well.
Thank you both for coming in this cold
evening in Vienna.
It's snowy.
And yeah, so just to start to know you a
bit. It's if you can introduce
yourselves
to tell us what how do you get into
energy sectors with your backgrounds?
And then we can go deep in each one of
you.
So please Clara, if you want to start.
>> so hi, thank you for coming. My name
is Clara Maria Hable. I'm at the
Austrian Association for district
heating and cooling cooling and also now
head of the Austrian Association for
geothermal. It's
a joint venture. Yeah, so my road is
that I actually I studied spatial
planning at the TU University and then I
wanted to do more projects in the
environment and I applied at Verbund and
that's why I landed in the energy
sector. So I was first in the project
development for energy projects for wind
power and solar power.
And so I became part of the energy
world.
>> Yeah, well, Verbund is one of the
biggest utilities not only in Austria
but also with presence in Eastern
Europe, so that must be must has been a
a great experience.
>> Yeah, what what was the biggest project
you were a part of?
>> Ooh, it's hard to say because there were
a lot of M&A projects. I
thinking of the whole scale up
through the other countries like
expanding the portfolio to Iberia or
Romanian more, yeah, to Germany, so
yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Really interesting challenges in
actually building this up.
>> Yeah, and from Verbund to
because Verbund
they don't have
geothermal, right? So how do you get
into geothermal world?
>> so Verbund is more on electricity and
and water.
and then I
yeah, landed at the association for
district heating and cooling, so it's
more on the heating side but still it's
part of the energy system.
Now I'm here since
3 years.
>> Wow, cool.
Cool, cool. And you, Gregor, if you
>> Yes.
So first of I have to say from the
beginning of the end of this month on we
have two geothermal associations, so the
one Clara is
leading
is from the
Chamber of Economy and we have another
>>.
>> geothermal association, so I'm here also
on behalf of the association today.
I work at EVN, which is a
regional energy supplier in Lower
Austria, more or less the suburbs and
the
the area around Vienna.
my background is geophysics, so I
studied geophysics in Vienna and started
the Geological Survey of Austria where
I've been working for more than 20
years.
>> Okay.
>> And of these 20 years
I would say 18 years in geothermal. I
started in 2004
with geothermal research
assessing resource
subsurface potentials, but then in
the recent years it turned more and more
into managing managing resources. Also a
very crucial topic. so I
was the chair of European network on
geothermal industry heating in Europe.
And in 2019 we founded the Austrian
Geothermal Association because this was
yeah, there was no, let's say
network interest group on geothermal
in Austria. This is how I came into
geothermal.
>> So yeah, that's just from 2019.
>> The as other association, we are we
have two associations now in Austria.
>> Okay. Okay.
>> We're working close together, but yes,
the one is more this was were
independent association.
>> Okay.
>> Still
>> Because one is from the industry and the
other is part of
chamber of
economics.
>> Yes.
>> What's the difference? How do you work
together with those associations?
>> So the our association, which is part
of the Chamber of Commerce, we are only
focusing on deep geothermal and also on
the lobbying. So we want to push the
legal frameworks.
>> And our association is also covering
shallow geothermal, so all techniques
>> yeah.
>> all applications. And we are
more a platform for universities,
governmental bodies, non-governmental
organizations.
>> okay.
>> And industries. So it's a kind of an
overlapping, but also
kind of a complementary work with
>> Yeah, they are complementary. So when
you when you talk about deep geothermal
is to generate electricity or or also to
use it in heating?
>> No, as
for us as association for district
heating and cooling at the moment we
focus
on the heating.
>>.
>> For us
a geothermal is a key solution in the
decarbonization for the district
heating.
>> Yes.
>> It is.
>> And that's that's our focus.
>> And how how has that changed in the
recent years, do you think? Is there
more awareness?
>> Yeah, on the one side we have more
regulations like
EBK.
Yeah,
renewable heating act which is forces
the branch the district heating branch
to decarbonize by law
>>.
>> till 2030. And so every every every
energy provider needs to decarbonize his
district heating and especially in
big cities but also on the countryside
therefore deep geothermal will be a key
solution. And it's very important
getting more important so
over the years.
>> Well, also geothermal has a long
tradition in Austria so the first plant
started in 1979.
And why did it start? Because we had the
oil crisis at this time.
You will not remember.
You've been born I guess.
>> No, but it's like a deja vu, right?
>> Yeah, exactly. It's a deja vu right now.
Yeah, yeah but it was there were efforts
in the 70s after the OPEC crisis
to introduce geothermal but at this time
it was too too too early. So
first district heating developed in
Styria at this time and then we had a
boom in the in the early 2000 late
1990s.
Also in connection with spas with
thermal water use in for balneology to
the swimming swimming pools like in
Iceland. You can do it very nicely.
>> Definitely.
>> You can swim in the in the cooling basin
of the power.
>>.
>> Like the Blue Lagoon.
>> Definitely.
>> So and the over the last years we saw
that there is a you call it Renaissance
Renaissance of chief family as it is
indeed now further developing because
chief family in Austria for district
heating was on the more in the
countryside small towns district capital
cities but now it's moving into the
large urban areas the conglomerates and
might become as Clara mentioned the
key element for it for the heating and
cooling transition for the future.
>> Yeah, actually we wanted really much to
make this episode because we saw a
presentation from another big utility
here and they showed the old transition
for the assets to decarbonize it's
mainly heat pumps and geothermal
technology. So it's a big
driver for decarbonize and we are
scoping also central and eastern Europe.
So
we see Austria as a role model also to
be implemented there and more
about the potential for example. So we
have seen that
in Vienna there is a potential near to
altitude now
which other places they have potential.
>> Mostly all the basin areas. So where you
have flatlands
there's normally the sign for a basin
and the basin means that it's in the
subsurface in several
thousands of meters of depth there are
host rocks which I have cracks and
faults and can contain
natural thermal water which you can use
for district heating or electricity
production
and these large basin areas in Austria
like the Vienna Basin so the region
around Vienna the Molasse Basin which is
more or less heading from Kufstein
to Bregenz.
These are the and the Styrian Basin of
course should mention this too.
These are the potential areas. So, if
you calculate it the technical
potential, it might end up around 20 to
25% of the Austrian population could be
supplied by district heating. And in
addition, where you don't have district
heating, you still have heat pumps as a
solution as individual solutions., or
the fifth generation heating cooling
networks as a mix between district
heating and individual solutions. So,
and
the bore heat exchangers you can
literally do everywhere where you
allowed to drill in the end.
>> That's quite a lot.
>> of course.
>> Yeah, I'm I'm curious, though, what what
are the unique challenges that you see
geologically or infrastructure or
bureaucratically to build up and
encourage this transition transition?
>> Yeah. I will maybe start with the policy
framework and I would like to
>> So, what the plan on that?
>> Yep.
>> yeah, so, for us is,
important to have the legal frameworks.
At the moment, the water law and
also the mineral law act is not,
regulated so far that we have a good
framework and that, the companies
can rest, safety. So, that's
why we need some real legal frameworks.
It's also standing in the
Regierungsprogramm.
>> Yep.
>> And also in the
industry industry strategy, which is
really new., it's, public since
Friday, I think.
>>.
>> And, so, that's very important for
us.
>> so, the problem is that,
geothermal is used for four decades
right now in Austria, but it's,
treated the same way as you
build a
drinking water supply well in your
backyard. So, it's not considered as a
energy resource which should be governed
by itself.
It's not the case for oil and gas. There
are individual laws on that.
Such a family is like a common good like
sunlight or
you could see in one sense on the other
side. It's very related to
land property. So, in Austria if you own
some land
by law you own it to the center of the
earth.
No, it's true.
There are not many countries in Europe
who still have such regulations but
Austria has. So, that's why the
legal framework should be modernized.
Secondly, of course it's also for
authorities it's a quite uncommon way to
produce energy because we have 10
geothermal district heating in Austria
develops over the last year
40 years almost because 1979 was the
first one in Styria.
It means and we have the potential to
have 20-30 projects in the next 10 to 15
years.
Which means
almost
three three times more than we now have.
And this is not just for Austria this is
valid for most European countries.
Geothermal deep geothermal projects from
the first scratch
to the first submission to the authority
to the start of operation and
takes in average 7 to 8 years.
>> 7 to but that's to start
constructing or to start operating?
>> Planning from the operation.
>> Yeah. Wow, 7 years.
>> Yeah, it's a mean a huge project. So,
let's say on average nowadays geothermal
heating plant has a capacity of 20 MW
maybe
it's going up and up. So, the new
standard in the future will be around
30-40 MW they're huge projects,
important projects. But still, 8 years
is not is too long to do the energy
transition in time.
When you think about our decarbonization
aims in Europe.
>> So, what's in Austria?
>> And on also in Austria, yes.
There I think we can save some years by
improving the legal framework,
by also streamlining the procedures in
the authorities. So, giving clear
guidelines how all the risks are
assessed.
and technology, yes, needs to
improved., drilling drilling is
still dominated by oil and gas. We
That's very good because we have very
excellent can drill precisely in 5 km
depth.
And a long trace of a plus minus 1 m,
that's great.
It comes from the oil business, but it's
too expensive for geothermal.
So, we need now to lower the cost
commercialized drilling to be more like
not mass product, but a more
cost-efficient product.
could be by improving new drilling
technologies. I'm not sure who if this
will ever work. There are some ideas of
plasma drilling and so on, but still
the costs are too high and too
volatile. That's another big problem we
have in Europe is because onshore oil
and gas exploration was dominating until
the
early 1990s.
Then the oil and gas business went down
in Europe. Onshore, offshore is a
different story.
So, we don't have enough service
provider in Europe
to have a market.
A competitive market to reduce prices.
A different story happened in the US
with the shale gas. There a lot of
drilling companies came up. Most of them
disappeared later on, but at least you
had some competition.
>>.
>> That's also a problem we have we face on
you because if you geothermal rollers
will not
will come.
So Germany, they want to invest in 400
projects. So
So where's the market on that to deliver
the services we need?
>> Speaking of Germany, they recently
passed a regulation to simplify the
legal framework for shallow drilling
specifically. How is it
in comparison in Austria? Is there a
need for sort of
easier bureaucracy
like you were talking about risk
assessments for deep geothermal.
are we
falling behind here in Austria
compared to Germany?
>> so I think we have we have some legal
framework. It's called EABG. So it's
also renewable accelerating act. It's
more or less now
under construction and is
also discussed and dated by authorities
and ministries.
but still it's more focusing
on other renewables like wind power,
solar power. geothermal is
somehow part of it, but it's also not
not so clear, but still it's not not
here at the moment. So it will come in
the future soon. We hope that it's come
soon and that we have more accelerating
the process.
But I think it's not compared to
Germany. it's more a detailed law
and
more concrete. So I
So in Austria, I think
such a similar law it's it's not
seen in the future or in the soon
future, but yeah, I think it would be
nice to have it also in Austria.
>>.
I think the stereotype is that
companies usually worse in bureaucracy.
So.
>> No.
No, normally everything is more
complicated in Germany. Yeah.
But in that sense, no, Germany did
a lesson the
the homework
we Austria hasn't done.
Hungary has done their homework.
Netherlands has done their homework.
Almost
not all surrounding countries but a lot
of countries in Europe
are now preparing.
They were a lot of geothermal. we are
lagging a little bit behind. So,
we started to discuss about the
barriers.
And I am I'm we mainly talk about deep
geothermal
cuz the barriers are greater there.
So, apart from the legal framework and
the procedures, of course, incentives
are needed. You have to imagine
companies like the one I'm working for.
Geothermal is not their daily business.
Yeah., 25 years ago biomass was
not the daily business of almost any
energy supplier. So, these incentives,
they were very important just to trigger
investment decisions. It's not always
just an economic, it's also a
psychological effect.
You get easy approval by your CEO if
you say I bring a
funding with me. So, we can try this new
out. the government started with a
very interesting initiative two two
years ago in 2024 with kind of a
deep geothermal exploration funding
program. And so, a lot of activities
were triggered also from smaller energy
suppliers. not just the big
large companies like I'm working for or
like Wiener Energie
or OMV. so, also smaller and then
suddenly at the change of the last
government, all these fundings were put
on hold, so we have a
a classic stop-and-go policy.
>> Yeah.
>> And now they are all waiting. I am also
waiting to see if this is continued or
not. Of course, we will do our work
also, but it's makes it
way harder
without having any kind of support.
risk mitigation, that's a big topic
because
in contrast to, let's say, another
renewable like biomass, as I mentioned
before, if you compare biomass heating
plant with future thermal, the lifecycle
costs they are comparable. So, it's not
more expensive, but the risk
is different. In biomass, you shift the
risk to the future because you have to
purchase biomass somewhere. You don't
know what the price will be in 4 years
or what the bound legal boundary
conditions will be for certificates
linked to biomass.
In geothermal, you have to invest every
most of your lifecycle costs in the
beginning.
And you always have the risk not to find
any drop of water.
And you have a
you invest into a dry hole, you say, in
few signs.
>> Yeah.
>> and you get nothing no revenue at
all.
>>.
>> That That's a big problem.
>> And comparing to oil and gas drilling,
so if you drill six times in a row and
you find nothing in on then
and the seventh one is finding, then you
have do earn the whole investment back.
But in geothermal, it's it's different,
as Gregor said, and therefore we
definitely need some subsidies, some
subsidy frameworks that can be
one part private, can be
public-private partnerships, that's also
one thing
that I get geothermal will work
on. So, that's also really, really
important thing for the branch.
>>.
>> Yeah, I am well, I'm from Chile. We have
a lot of
thermal potential. Yes. But it haven't
Yeah, but it hasn't been exploded
because of that challenge of the risk of
not finding anything.
>> And public perception, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah, actually.
>> what? I was almost applying for
a job in Chile 20 years ago in
Innsbruck.
>> Wow, and
>> But it's too far away from Austria.
Yeah.
No, and well, you mentioned the
situation in the
'70s with the oil crisis. Now we are in
a similar situation. Would you say that
now is the right time to push
geothermal?
>> Yes, of course. No, because we have
these volatile times.
If you want to see an impact in the next
5 to 10 years, we have to start right
now.
Cannot wait 5 years cuz then we see the
impact in 10 15 years, the positive
impact. What I want to say, also
technical technological innovation will
bring something in the future. I'm quite
confident. Cuz now we are talking about
using natural thermal water. So natural
water which is trapped in great depths
>>.
>> and has been heated up by the
surrounding rock. But the thermal
water is not the heat source, it's just
the heat carrier.
The heat source is the rock, the solid
rock in between.
>>.
>>.
>> So the idea is how to get the heat out
of the rock. So we have one way is using
natural water with this concept of two
wells forming a doublet. We pump out
transfer the heat and check the water.
>> It's like two drills at the end.
>> Two drills, yes. It's like a groundwater
well. It's the same concept, just a
little bit deeper. But now also research
is going to close loop systems. And this
could be quite interesting. They're
they're not market ready and I don't I
doubt that they will be in the next 5
years. Maybe a
some
colleagues see differently, but the
closed loop systems means and that's
where drilling comes into place.
>> Yeah.
>> You drill a borehole, you it's a
closed system so you have you operate it
with water or any other heat carrier
fluid. It doesn't connect with the rocks
directly.
>> Like a heat bomb.
>> It's like a boiler exchanger. You
transfer heat by conduction at the outer
wall of your drilling.
So if you're able to drill
a lot of these deep holes, connect them,
you can create an artificial heat
exchanger.
>> Wow.
>> It has no environmental impact that you
have no risk of not finding heat because
the heat is everywhere. You just have to
risk now to find water in the certain
depth and the certain heat content.
>> And this can be done at depth as well?
>> Yes, yes. so there are few concepts.
I will not name any companies because I
don't want to make advertisement for
them but there are there different way
of concepts and many of them rely on oil
and gas technology.
>>.
>> So what do you mean one concept is you
make a loop by drilling two vertical
wells which then get connected in the
subsurface
>>.
>> from two different locations.
another concept is
to
create a closed loop with a dual
completion like a boiler boiler
exchanger for instance. You have a outer
and inner pipe where the water is
circulating and you
from one location you create a vertical
section and a horizontal section. The
horizontal section is important to get
enough capacity.
The vertical section controls the
temperature of your fluid.
>>.
>> So that's how you can design these
things
but in the moment they are not
competitive. This is way too
expensive to drill. You have to drill 40
km of boreholes.
You can do it but it's very cost
intensive.
And you also have to earn the money back
one day.
>> Yeah.
>> So if I can reduce the drilling cost by
a factor two
or maybe three even, have only one third
of the cost
then you have a
economy of scales.
So, what they're doing right now, for
instance, in US, in Utah, Utah Forge
project, it's not it's not a closed
loop, but it's a ultra-hot concept. And
they have a very
great learning curve.
So, because they're always drilling in
the same environment, they can optimize
their drilling program, which bits you
use, when you which sections you drill.
So, they can reduce 30%. It's still
still not enough to be competitive
for closed loops.
>> How do you see, what is your feeling in
the near future with the technology?
>> I think 10 years
it will work sooner or later, I'm
sure. And then, you can do your deep
geothermal everywhere that you want.
>> So, effectively endless energy.
>> Endless.
Human sense, yes.
>> Exactly.
>> What is endless in the end?
>> Yeah, no such thing.
>> Yeah, and you were mentioning the
current local framework, legal
framework. But, what about Europe? The
what the
what Brussels says?
>> Yeah, there are also
different laws and acts. So, we have the
the heating and cooling act, and
especially one act that we also love it
a lot is a geothermal strategy. So, also
for Europe, but at the end,
we have this national topics at the
moment.
>> So, there were efforts by the Hungarian
Commission. Hungary is a country with a
tradition of using geothermal, because
they have
a lot of water in the subsurface, to the
Pannonian Basin, which was a sea and
later a lake in the past, and they have
a high heat flow, because the crust is
thinning there. It's getting stretched.
>> And that's why they have a lot of water.
>> tradition of geothermal. Geothermal is
very important also in their strategic
thinking. So,
each country has for half a year the
chair in European It's not a commission,
it's the Yeah, the pile. I'm sorry, my
English is
>> I'm sorry.
>> Beirat.
>> the European
>> In council. European Council of That's
now my English is back.
So, they had a resolution to force
the commission to do or to
recommend to the commission to do a
geothermal strategy. I think it's
getting picked up, but also the
parliament had a similar resolution. So,
we're waiting for the commission to work
on a strategy. That's common sense
because to create such strategies,
there is a solar strategy, why shouldn't
be there a geothermal strategy?
The big benefit from a strategic
point of view, it's it's it's a
domestic energy source. You don't need
to import it.
>> Yeah, energy independence.
That's why we are pushing.
>> And geothermal in a bigger picture in
Europe is also the producing
electricity and also lithium production,
for example, in Strasbourg, there's
also a project called Volcano,
where where they
insert also lithium through the water
and
then they bring it to Frankfurt to build
some some batteries. So, they have
really innovative different
projects.
But, in Austria, at the moment, we are
focusing on heating.
>> Regarding your your research background
and what is the biggest innovation
gap and how how can we actually move
from this strategic mapping to drilling
more areas?
>> Yes, so, a drilling must must get
cheaper. That's the biggest gap.
>> And plasma is the newest?
>> it's not so new., I saw
presentations 10 years ago about plasma.
It sounds all all these things sounds
great, but maybe we have to reinvent the
way which will
>> There's always a catch, isn't there?
>> Yes.
>> Yeah.
>> You can high voltage drilling by you
call it
how it's called
You break you
stimulate the rock the solid matrix
>>.
>> to in go in resonance and then it
collapses like which
>> Right.
>> Yeah, but no
Data data is very important. So, I think
government
should
help companies to create new data.
Better we know the subsurface the
better the chances are. You always have
surprises because you can all can You
know, when we drill for thermal water,
we drill for cracks and fractures which
have a few
micrometers to millimeters.
>>.
>> But we have
we can only we look more or less on
the on the say
a crack like like a cast in the rock.
But we can't only see the slope, not the
rock itself.
>> Yeah.
>> So, drilling is the most important
thing. We The more we drill
the seism is also important. I don't say
that all other methods that are used is
no they help us creating a model which
where we derive the probability of
having such cracks and fissures with
water.
But in the end, drilling is the only
proof and that's why these investments
are very important. So, that's where
government can support activities. Data
The data of course everybody has an
economic interest. It's understandable.
There's no question on that.
But we should think about making all
data
which have been assessed 40 50 years ago
accessible.
All those let's say states which have
such a policy just to name it
Netherlands for
they benefit way more more development
if you reduce such barriers.
Doesn't mean that you get it for free,
but at least you have a chance to get
those data.
>> But at the end of the day, it's just
cost of drilling.
>> Yes.
>> And that's
>> To be honest, and the other
thing you asked about technical risk, of
course they are not on they're
not so many risks.
the most
let's say sensitive risk in geothermal
is still seismicity. It means
that injecting water can produce
sensitive earthquakes which you can
sense.
Doesn't mean that anything gets
destroyed or somebody gets hurt, but
it's enough if you sense it. If you
sense it, you have a mistrust in
technology.
So, there a lot of research took place
in the last 15 years on that topic to
control these geothermal systems.
And I think
the more projects we will have in the
future, the better this
management systems will be.
>> Oh okay, so it's a calling to share
data.
Kind of. Because
>> I'm always
but that's my personal opinion. I don't
say that's official opinion. It's not
the official opinion of the association,
but it's my
personal opinion.
>> Sure. No, I was just thinking in the
example of Tesla. Like they released the
battery plans.
>>.
>> So, they created the market sharing the
the whole knowledge to create batteries,
and they take by themselves the best
part.
So, when they released it, they were at
mass already, but they created the
market, and then
>> Normally, if you have an advantage, it's
enough to be
Otherwise, you don't have an open
market.
>> And
>> Yeah.
>> And the other point you also mentioned,
it's maybe also subsidies for research
drillings, like in regions where we have
no data,
also no
oil and gas drillings in the history.
So, we have
kind of white label in the
labels in our maps. So, which is no
research at all at the moment. And maybe
it's also hard to do seismic because of
the mountains or other
constitutions. So, therefore, it would
be also good to have more investments
in research and also research drilling.
so, that would be also helpful for
the branch.
>> Addressing this risk of lack of data, we
came across with this
project GeoPlasma C which is using AI
and data mapping. So, maybe you
could tell us about
>> Yes.
>> this project.
>>
I was the project manager of GeoPlasma.
So, it was my project in the end.
>> Okay.
>> It's about shallow geothermal, not deep.
>>.
>> and we don't use AI. No.
>> No.
>> No. No. No. No. It was just a
traditional story to I don't want to
prove you wrong on that, but
it's a traditional mapping project, but
it was a
collaboration of the geological survey
organizations
of Austria, Slovenia,
Poland, Germany, and Slovakia, and
Czech Republic should mention. So, it
was a nice
cross-border mapping project. I think
created a nice
blueprint and the prototype for such
information systems.
Now, the geological survey of Austria is
now called GeoSphere Austria. They're
developing such information systems
which are great help for shallow
>> geothermal.
>>.
Would be good to have something similar
for deep geothermal. Germans have such a
system is called Geotis geothermal
tiefeninformationssystem.
And maybe we'll also have it in Austria
in the future.
>> Okay.
>> But AI is a hot topic. Yeah. Why? Is it
because you have to recognize patterns
in data. There are also patterns in
geological structures. So, a lot of
research is invested into automatic
detection of geophysical logging in
wells to detect
typical fracture zones and so on.
I
I think I will also use it soon for my
own work. Yeah.
>> And then yeah, AI is everywhere.
>> It's it's a very interesting project and
I love what Geosphere is doing with
the with the mapping. you can
essentially just click on the map and
see how much you could get out of that
location.
and how many wells you would need
for shallow
>> Exactly.
>> So business models that are needed for
deep geothermal to make it more
attractive because they probably see it
as a question of either it is a
long-term returns or there's nothing at
all.
So
the startups have the same value
proposition and that's why many
investors require
10 investments in order to maybe have
one and then they want a 100x from from
that one person. So
is this something that can be developed
for deep geothermal?
>> For my opinion, but it's only my
opinion, it's it's hard that that
startups
could do investment
in such
huge scale-up industry.
So it's too much to finance it at the
moment.
maybe there exist some models, but still
that's really huge project. I'm not
so sure how.
>> It's not something that
>> market for startups
>> No, private venture capital.
>> Oh, private. Yeah.
>> Similar to startups.
Well
>> May I not not
>> comment on that?, on the one
hand, of course, the portfolio approach
is important and you see it companies
like Enagás in Denmark, a good example.
OMV, I think, wants to get in this
>> Exactly. OMV invested a couple years
ago.
>> But there is always a problem in all
these stories. On the one hand, we
should act like
the hydrocarbon industry that did in
the past to develop fields.
Cuz then you can really share the risk
in the portfolio.
On the other hand, independence oil and
gas is not heat.
>> Yeah.
>> Two different things.
Oil and gas, if I'm I'm not happy with
my provider, I change my provider
because the state is governing the
network.
>>.
>> With heat, I cannot do this.
Cuz heat is always short distance, short
distance delivery.
>> That's why in the end this concept
doesn't work so well.
>>.
>> And it's also not in Austria a concept
that
that that works, yeah. So.
>>.
>> I think you can compare this field
>> That's all it's on the governmental
level.
>> Right.
>> Yeah, if I could make a wish, to be
honest,
portfolio management would be
important.
>>.
>> Help also smaller companies.
But the partner should be then more,
let's say, like a fund, which is partly
provided by the state
>>.
>> with revenues for the state, of course.
It shouldn't be for free.
So, that means if you want to go into
this safety umbrella to
risk your project, you might pay some
royalty later on that, but this is only
one concept, of course. There are
others, too, premiums and so on.
>> Right., there's also the problem
of
public perception.
When one borehole that looks impressive
in the beginning doesn't produce
anything, people that that aren't
necessarily familiar with the topic
might
disregard geothermal altogether.
>> Yeah, let's give a
happy happy news to the investor or or a
happy idea, because we are pushing here
the topic that
energy consumption it's barely electric
near to 20 to 23%. The rest is heat and
cooling. So, it's a huge opportunity to
decarbonize.
So,
you mentioned something that with
geothermal
it could be covered near to 20%.
>> From it's in Yes, it's in
>> So, what is the potential in the
market?
>> projects like
what's called GEOTH
of the concluded around 20 25
percent with the current technologies.
It means that the other, apart
from other aspects, they are not living
in regions where you have these natural
thermal water bodies.
All hard rock environments, all
Scandinavia, you don't find this if you
don't have volcanoes like in Iceland,
you have crystalline granite rock but
cold and
tight there is no water
inside.
With other technologies in the future,
we don't rely on the natural water, this
range can be widened, of course.
>> Okay. And currently, how much is being
covered?
>> 2% 1 and 1/2.
>> So, 2% and it can reach 20.
>> Yes, that's the big
>> That's the big range.
>> Yeah. And
we were
very into one report from
IEA
about
energy employment.
How do you see the shortage of
professionals in geothermal
sector?
>> It depends because
the our Austri- the association for
district heating and cooling, so we made
an internship or new program. I think
maybe Gregor can say more for the
industry.,
>>
>> It's hard to say.
>> There were there is still competence
there, but with reduction of oil and gas
exploration the past 20 30 years, of
course, the
the level of skilled employees goes
down.
So, geothermal is not a the classical
study you can do. In
in Austria you are not able to become a
a certified geothermal academic expert.
You have to study geology,
geophysics, or
reservoir engineering, but then you have
a lot of other things.
>> Is it possible in other countries?
>> In German In Germany they start now.
Yes, and they are thinking about
international
master programs. Delft, for instance, in
the Netherlands
they want to start with partner
universities, I think of human and so
on.
That's what is needed in the end. And
also
same applies to shallow geothermal. For
boiler exchanger you need a driller, you
need a heat pump installer, you need a
planner.
Why not making
a study
combine these three skills? Cuz they are
all these three skills are useful.
if I am allowed to drill, I can drill
drinking water supply well, too.
>>.
>> If if required. If I am able to make
install installments of heat pumps, I
understand how a heating system works.
So, it's a
could be quite interesting.
That's is some Let's say something we
can offer for the future because
we talk on deep geothermal 20 times more
we can
roll out, if you want, in the next
decades. It doesn't stop in 2040.
Can
be prolonged.
Same applies to shallow geothermal. I
think with heat pumps
six, seven times that's would be also
necessary to decarbonize.
Of course, a lot of these will be
air-based heat pumps. The
ground source heat pump has the
advantage that you don't need to install
a ventilator on your house. That's a big
difference, noise,
waste heat.
Yeah.
>> So, which
specialties? You said that they were the
>> drilling,
>> -.
>> energy planning, also let's say a few
scientific and energy planning how to
to blend the heat exchanger
>>.
>> and installment of a heating system.
Those are three different skills you
need.
>> Well, that sounds like a good idea to
hold for a hackathon. We are planning to
make this competition.
>> I thought it's yeah.
>> Well. No, it's good good. And now we
are reaching
the final part of the this conversation.
And let's dream. So, if you would have
100 million euros, what would you invest
on to accelerate energy transition and
especially to foster geothermal?
>> I'm just now working on a project which
needs to install invest 100 million, so
I know what I do.
Two more geothermal plants, no.
Just joking. No, I would invest it into
a risk insurance scheme.
And then exploration fund. With 100
million, you can do a lot. You can
stipulate a lot of future investments.
>> So, to de-risk drilling.
>> Yes.
>> And invest into exploration.
>> Exploration.
>> Let's do that.
>> To map in
>> Yes.
And including drillings.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah, I think Gregor said already with
them the things we are also already
working on and I think the de-risking
for the drillings also research and
concerning mapping and
data. It's really would be really
important and
the subsidies overall also for the
pipes, also for the nets in the district
heating because
you need to think the deep geothermal
project also in a bigger context because
it's not only the power installation and
drillings. We have also the district
heating net which needs to be closed or
if there needs a new pipe to connect
it and it's must also been seen.
so, there are the big investment
costs and also the pipes are really
expensive, so not only the drilling
>>.
>> also the pipes. So, in Austria we say we
have kind of golden pipes.
>> Yeah, because
>> our high standards, which is good, but
still they are also quite expensive.
>> The labor is the expensive part.
>>
and I'm not sure
>> Yeah, what's the most expensive the
excavation works, of course.
>> But there are a lot of components which
make it
expensive.
>> Organizing these costs.
>> Yeah.
>> You have to get a lot of permits to
create a
heat transport pipeline.
>>.
>> Same with drilling subsurface.
>> So, that's also in focus. we
shouldn't
we shouldn't we should have an eye on
it.
>> Yeah.
>> So, 10 times more deep geothermal in the
next
what? My money 30 years?
Do you think we can do it?
>> 30 years? Easily.
>> Yep.
>> I don't I will be happy so I think until
2030 we double it from the current level
because this is already in the pipeline.
>> Okay.
>> Vienna, Lower Austria, Styria.
2040, maybe three three times, maybe
even 2035.
10 times we will see.
But with a heat pumps that will be
difficult
honestly because we need way more
drillers in Austria and by the way we
will also need more drillers in deep
geothermal.
but I hope and I'm confident that the
market will develop.
>> And how much do you think has influenced
the goal from Austria to be carbon
neutral 2040 and not 2050 as European
Commission
proposed? Do you think that has been a
good driver for the industry?
>> It yes, because Vienna has the same
goals. 2040.
>>.
>> And I have to say
the colleagues from Wien Energie, they
are really front runners in Austria.
And they are also, of course, pushed by
this climate
goal.
>> And also the national heating act, which
was, I think, from 2 years ago
published. So, it's also
fostered to decarbonize the district
heating to 2030, really in total. So,
what's what should be said that Austria,
we are still have a lot of
a good decarbonized rate in Austria.
Like, it's more than 50% compared to
Germany. It's it's really high because
not that high like Scandinavian
country. And
for district heating, it's not only deep
geothermal and heat pumps, it's also
waste incineration, biomass. So,
waste heat, we have a lot of different
sources. That's I think the
the big or the interesting thing on
district heating and an advantage, but
still deep geothermal is also
a key solution concerning independency
and especially
independency from fossil fuels.
So,
>> Yeah.
Cool.
I really like to think that it is like a
the devil what passing in the that what
passed in the past and now it's a
new
new context.
>> What is the
one piece of advice that you would give
to a startup trying to innovate in the
hard tech world of geothermal energy?
>>
get yourself familiar with drilling.
>> Get the ball master?
>> yeah, but ball master is just
yes, ball master is better.
>>.
>> Air rings.
>> Sure.
>> Can you I can run your own run your own
business.
>>.
>> no, what I can say,
get yourself a geo-scientist cuz they
are helpful.
It's a also renaissance of geo-sciences
cuz everybody thought
it's nobody needs it. We can import
everything what we need. Coin
has been flipped. It's on the flip side
of everything now right now.
>> Yeah, okay. So, just to
end the
the interview, if you want to make some
last keynotes to just to
some messages for the community and what
could we do to foster geothermal and
reach carbon neutrality and fight
climate change, that is the biggest
goal.
>> I think we were really happy that we get
such support also for our position
papers and also that people understand
what is geothermal and what is deep
geothermal because we always talking in
specific bubble, but many people even
don't know what it's geothermal and deep
geothermal at all. So,
maybe you can spread
the technique and what what is the topic
about. I think Gregor was
Yeah, he explained it really lovely. And
I think that's also a big work to
to get
more the knowledge concerning geothermal
in general under the
the people in Austria. Yeah.
>>.
>> And then what is
geothermal is interesting working topic
for the future. If you are now on your
bachelor or master level or even below,
you don't know what to do with even if
it's
technical study or geo-scientific,
that's
interesting work because it combines so
many different things from hydrogeology
to energy techniques.
and
I think it's a growing business and a
good job opportunity.
>> And there are going to be plenty of
opportunities in the next decade. It's
not something we can automate with AI.
>> That's true. That's true. Yes.
>> Yeah. And well,
we believe that communication is
super important, especially in this kind
of super technical topic. So, if you
have material that we could share, we
can add it to the interview at the end
of the video. We can share your social
media, your
your website where
the community can find information. And
nothing else that
thank you both for coming. Also, five
as a network here. And we hope to
have you again in a couple of
>> 40 years.
>> Yeah.
To see how the thing
>> All right. Thanks for having us.
>> Thank you.
>> Yeah. Thank you. And thank to the
community for watching it in the end.
And see you in the next episode.
>> Ciao.
>> Bye.

The Geothermal Renaissance in CEE | Rewiring Europe's Heat Future & Energy Security| TEB S2E6

Permitting Delays Hinder Geothermal Rollout

Drilling Costs Remain a Major Barrier

Dry Hole Risk Deters Geothermal Investment

Austria Lags in Geothermal Policy

Workforce Shortage Threatens Expansion